what keeps the airway open on expiration?

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

Palerider wrote: "That's why EPR can cause more apneas"
I'm with Palerider on the whole EPR fiasco.
But assuming you don't get sucked into the "comfort" stuff or that you are correctly diagnosed as 10 cm for pause and exhalation

'correctly diagnosed' is a mythy. sleep changes from night to night, and indeed, hour to hour. unless you crank the pressure up to cover all the eventualities, one pressure isn't 'right' for anything other than whatever exact circumstance it was found at.

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

apneas and set the machine accordingly---what happens with the pressures, if the tongue collapses into the throat on the pause between inhalation and exhalation?

Not sure where you're getting this 'pause', because there normally isn't one. people go directly from inhalation flow to exhalation flow.

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

and what happens if the tongue collapses into the throat during the pause and into the start of the exhalation motion?

Why would it do that?

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

and my question, what happens on a clear airway?

'clear airway' is a term made up by Philips Respironics, the rest of the respiratory and CPAP industry uses the commonly acceptable term 'central' to denote a time when there's no breathing effort for an extended point of time. Hold your breath for 10 seconds, that's a central apnea.

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

I've read that Resmed initiates the EPR on the pause

what 'pause'?

tyrinryan wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm

and continues it until inspiration so you don't even have the full PAP to continue to keep the airway open on the pause. Probably, I guess, (PIG), this does not help the average soul.
Can the sleep study actually calculate the collapse of the airway as between inspiration/pause/expiration? Perhaps by calculating back from the apnea? Do you think?

There is no 'pause' between inspiration and expiration, there is a pause *after expiration*.

EPR:

And what is "(PIG)"

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:12 pm

people go directly from inhalation flow to exhalation flow.

Technically, there is a point where the flow is zero. But, it's a stretch of language to call that a pause.

jimbud wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:48 am

Diaphragm rises.
Lungs compress.
Air moves out and vents through mask vents.
Pressure stays the same.
More or less.

once again.
JPB

How shallow of me.
I am chagrined.
JPB

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:39 pm

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:12 pm

people go directly from inhalation flow to exhalation flow.

Technically, there is a point where the flow is zero. But, it's a stretch of language to call that a pause.

yes, there is an *instant* at the end of an inhalation where air movement going into the lungs changes to air going out of the lungs, but I think calling that a pause would be stretching language to the breaking point.

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:12 pm

And what is "(PIG)"

in his post, he says "probably, i guess (PIG)" so i reckon he's using it as an acronym??

I noticed that if I have hiccups, they occur in that pause between breaths.
I have also found if I can avoid a "stop" between breaths, the hiccups will stop.
Practicing smooth breathing tends to hyperventilate me, though.

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:27 pm

raisedfist wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:35 am

Their isn't much work involved with exhalation - it doesn't involve muscle contraction and it's a passive process. Inhalation and exhalation are separate phases of a breathe cycle. You breathe in, gas exchange occurs, and then you exhale.

There isn't a usual EPAP pressure since everyone's needs vary. On normal machines the EPAP min starts at 3 or 4 because you have to flush the expired air so you don't re breathe a bunch of carbon dioxide and give yourself a nasty headache or early funeral.

FALSE: It doesn't involve muscle contraction and it's a passive process.

It DOES involve muscle contraction! Don't believe it, take a breath open you mouth without breathing out with out (using your muscles, holding your hand up to your mouth. The air doesn't just jump out of your lungs, they aren't balloons, the diaphragm created the pressure change that fills and exhausts the air in the Lungs. It can be both be involuntary (Brain triggered) or voluntary (You think to do it and control it) Jim

It kinda seems like the exhalation part is just when you stop trying or making any effort, you kind of just let it all out. It doesn't seem to take any energy to exhale when I do, as opposed to inhalation. I'm not smart enough to follow your experiment though.


I did read this from the NIH Govt website:

"Breathing Out (Exhalation)

When you breathe out, or exhale, your diaphragm relaxes and moves upward into the chest cavity. The intercostal muscles between the ribs also relax to reduce the space in the chest cavity.

As the space in the chest cavity gets smaller, air rich in carbon dioxide is forced out of your lungs and windpipe, and then out of your nose or mouth.

Breathing out requires no effort from your body unless you have a lung disease or are doing physical activity. When you're physically active, your abdominal muscles contract and push your diaphragm against your lungs even more than usual. This rapidly pushes air out of your lungs."

Too bad we can't ask Superman. you might believe him! Probably not! A Gov quack , ok!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6WodQiEccg Jim How Lungs Move!

Ya know, Raisedfist, it really is a complete waste of time to try to get through to some people, who no longer have the facilities required to adequately comprehend a subject, if they ever did, no matter how funny they mistakenly think they are.

From the video linked: "during the expiratory phase, the muscles relax, the diaphragm moves up and in, and this pushes air out of the lungs."

Huh, must be some "Gov quack" doing the video...

Or maybe "relax" means 'works harder' in their perverse twist on the English language.

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:55 pm

Or maybe "relax" means 'works harder' in their perverse twist on the English language.

You are always talking about that balloon that can't be blown up with CPAP pressure. Do you think you can blow it up with your breath just by relaxing some muscles?

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:04 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:55 pm

Or maybe "relax" means 'works harder' in their perverse twist on the English language.

You are always talking about that balloon that can't be blown up with CPAP pressure. Do you think you can blow it up with your breath just by relaxing some muscles?

I believe we are discussing exhalation, not inhalation. Practicing "deep breathing" in front of a mirror - you can see and feel that inhalation requires effort. Exhalation does not seem to from at least a subjective standpoint. As far as I understand once the lungs are filled with air and ready to blow out the CO2 waste, the lungs are elastic meat bags and essential recoil and expel all that gunk gas out. As the article I read states, this of course would be difficult for someone with say an obstructive airway disease, like COPD, where there is air trapping.

A Bow requires force to propel a arrow. you pull the Bow spring back to store energy in the bow, you let go of the string the stored energy of the spring snaps back and sends the arrow forward as the bow returns to the resting position. Lungs work a lot like that you inhale and hold air until the diaphragm is told to reverse the action.

The Chest is like a barrel, the lungs very special (Meat Sacks)are inside with the plumbing sealed to the top of the barrel. the bottom of the barrel is the diaphragm, it's job is to change the volume of the barrel. By changing the volume in the barrel the lungs inflate and deflate depending on the position of the diaphragm. The lungs DO NOT push anything on their own, too much pressure in the barrel the lungs collapse, you die. If the Barrel has too much pressure in it, (Due damage (Blood loss to the inside) or other fluids, a hole must be made in the barrel to vent the extra pressure so the lungs will inflate.

raisedfist wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:55 am

I believe we are discussing exhalation, not inhalation.

To state what is obvious to most people, blowing up a balloon IS exhalation.

raisedfist wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:55 am

gunk gas

That's a very poor descriptor. Exhaled air has slightly less O2 and slightly more CO2 than inhaled air.

raisedfist wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:55 am

an obstructive airway disease, like COPD

The term COPD covers three different conditions - emphysema, chronic bronchitis and asthma.

raisedfist wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:55 am

the lungs are elastic meat bags and essential recoil and expel

Strictly speaking, this is true when a person is sleeping. At other times, such as during exercise or blowing up a balloon, the abdominal muscles place tension on the diaphragm. The diaphragm doesn't simply relax.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:04 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:55 pm

Or maybe "relax" means 'works harder' in their perverse twist on the English language.

You are always talking about that balloon that can't be blown up with CPAP pressure. Do you think you can blow it up with your breath just by relaxing some muscles?