Speculations about CPAP-dependency.

Maybe he could post the Sleep data from the fan, we could suggest improvements. Jim

Or if instead of reading junk studies, he could have read forum posts on masking noise, he would have learned the value of Fans, Noise machines, T.V.s ect in overcoming the preception of XPAP noise, But if you don't want to overcome, you won't!

Goofproof wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:14 pm

Maybe he could post the Sleep data from the fan, we could suggest improvements.

Nah, he should take that over to fantalk.com

I have no issue with people seeking alternatives to CPAP, although it does tweak me a bit when they “attack” CPAP. I tried and failed with CPAP 20 years ago (very different machines and masks back then) and opted for UPPP. Worst mistake I ever made, although I was one of the successful ones. Reduced my AHI from high 20’s to low teens, but now I have constant post nasal drip, dry cough and inflamed esophagus, all attributed to that surgery by my ENT. And here I am, trying CPAP again. As much as I hate the thought of being tied to a machine, I hate how I feel every day without sleep even more.

I recently started seeing a cardiologist who convinced me to try the CPAP again - in his view, not trying will take years off my life from the side effects of the apnea. My GI doctor thinks my GERD could be related to the apnea too. Which is worse - heart disease, bad quality of life and early death, or “dependency” on CPAP? Easy call for me, but YMMV.

The first rule when doing internet research is check your sources.

Your first post which seems to form the basis of your concern references a Dr. Paulose. A quick google search led me to this docs website. He is an ENT surgeon in India who's website is largely devoted to "medical tourists".
His website links to some of the numerous article he has authored, a number of them made me chuckle.

As a woman who both snores and has sleep apnea my favorite "articles" the good doc has authored include:

"Snoring Women-Not Sexy"
https://drpaulose.com/snoring/sleep-apn ... n-not-sexy
The title caught my eye but it was the opening sentences that made me think, medical genius.
"Do Woman snore? Yes indeed not as bad as men, but what if they snore like a small vicious dog, it is obnoxious."

"Does Woman Snore" is another one of my faves, once again the opener is brilliant!
https://drpaulose.com/general/does-woman-snore
"Does Woman Snore? Many women do snore. It’s not your fault if you do. Snoring may be the subject of many jokes, but it definitely isn’t funny.
Its disturbing and not sexy at all, especially when you’re trying to sleep next to them."

You fellas aren't off the hook. In yet another "well researched" medical article Dr. Paulose states some stats that for some reason I have never read before.
https://drpaulose.com/snoring/sleep-apn ... r-sex-life
"Snoring can riuin your sex life"
"Stop Snore, Save Your Marriage. If you are a loud Snorer and your sex life will be in ruin. So if you want to save your marriage, please stop snoring. About 10% of these couples have reached a state of no return in their marriage...
According to Dr. Paulose over 50% of heavy snorers suffer from ED
"The medical research has shown that heavy snorers experience reduction in sexual drive with over half of them have erectile dysfunction."

In a later post you state:
"So, following common sense, when a quick search of the literature pertaining to surgery and CPAP-dependency"
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... gery&btnG=
The articles you link to all discusses various surgeries. "CPAP dependency" is unfortunate diagnostic medical terminology that in studies differentiates patients who use CPAP from the general population. None of the links that come up on the first page of the search you link to address your contentions about sleep apnea and dependency.

Perhaps the reason you can find no peer reviewed medical documentation to support your belief that CPAP leads to dependency is that science doesn't support that conclusion.

Guy breaks his leg, he's in a cast holding his knee bent at a 90 degree angle to avoid any weight bearing while it heals. He can only walk with crutches. By your usage of the term he is "dependent" on crutches for walking. Is that a bad thing? Is the crutches industry trying to keep people dependent on crutches when they break their legs? Are the doctors in collusion?

"Dependency" or not, CPAP is not an illicit drug, it doesn't cause artificial highs or increase the danger of operating heavy machinery (in fact, it enhances the safety of operating heavy machinery!). So who effing cares????

Janknitz wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:08 pm

"Dependency" or not, CPAP is not an illicit drug, it doesn't cause artificial highs or increase the danger of operating heavy machinery (in fact, it enhances the safety of operating heavy machinery!). So who effing cares????

The OP seems to have inferred a possibility that using xPAP could lead to an inability to breathe without assistance from a machine, similar to those people needing supplemental oxygen at all times due to emphysema or some other progressive disease, requiring them to wander around hauling tanks of O2 whenever they leave home. At the same time, he only refers to needing the machine during periods of sleep - not sure how that would work.

At any rate, if you assume he is correct and you would eventually lose the ability to breathe at night without machine assistance, wouldn’t you think twice about using xPAP? To use the analogy in your post, imagine if using a cast for a broken leg resulted in never being able to walk without crutches, even after the leg healed - would you want to consider alternatives before agreeing to a cast?

I don’t agree at all with the OPs logic, assumptions or conclusions, but if we understand their point of view, it gives us all an opportunity to do a little research, have a fun discussion, and maybe educate people.

On the other hand, if anyone had developed a breathing disorder like the one the OP is positing, wouldn’t it have been reported on by now? xPAP has been around quite a while now and is in wide use. If it takes more than 30 years for the syndrome to develop, I think I’m safe - I’m already an old fart and wouldn’t live to see the problem.

NoOnesPerfect wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:38 pm

Janknitz wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:08 pm

"Dependency" or not, CPAP is not an illicit drug, it doesn't cause artificial highs or increase the danger of operating heavy machinery (in fact, it enhances the safety of operating heavy machinery!). So who effing cares????

The OP seems to have inferred a possibility that using xPAP could lead to an inability to breathe without assistance from a machine, similar to those people needing supplemental oxygen at all times due to emphysema or some other progressive disease, requiring them to wander around hauling tanks of O2 whenever they leave home. At the same time, he only refers to needing the machine during periods of sleep - not sure how that would work.

It's a *ridiculous* supposition, concocted by ignorant fools.

CPAP is for your breathing like eyeglasses are for your seeing.

Using CPAP makes you no more "dependent" than using eyeglasses makes you "dependent".

Use them and see, don't use them and things are blurry.

As was pointed out, CPAP doesn't breathe for you, it just holds your airway open so your lungs can pull in air, just like they do all day long when awake.

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:47 pm

[
It's a *ridiculous* supposition, concocted by ignorant fools.

I completely agree, but obviously the OP does not.

We had a friend, whose progressive medical condition necessitated using a respirator at night.
Eventually, his condition progressed to the point that he needed it 24/7.
Later, he admitted that he regretted holding out for so long-
-he had been making himself suffer needlessly.
Our medical conditions present the need for the machines.
Need comes first--machines come later.
Pride serves only to prolong suffering. Put it behind you.

NoOnesPerfect wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:49 pm

palerider wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:47 pm

It's a *ridiculous* supposition, concocted by ignorant fools.

I completely agree, but obviously the OP does not.

The OP needs to get a clue.

What makes it such a ridiculous question is that if you have OSA you ALREADY can't breath at night without it.

It's like being afraid to drink water using a glass because that might make you thirsty.

Does someone need to study whether eating with a fork leads to a loss of the ability to eat sandwiches?

In the context of OSA, using a CPAP as a simple mechanical tool to be able to sleep well is something that cannot make the sleep-breathing problem worse. In fact it prevents the sleep-breathing problem from getting worse in some significant ways.

That's the point. Denial of those realities or delay in acting on them is less than wise as a personal choice. Though all are free to make it.

Let's see. I'm bleeding profusely from an artery right now, but I'm afraid that stopping that bleeding might not be the best choice. I think I should find some studies first on whether stopping the bleeding is really necessary for everyone in case I'm an exception. Maybe it's better that I just bleed all the time to get used to it. That way I won't be dependent on keeping my blood inside my body. After all, I wouldn't want to start causing myself internal-blood dependence. I think I'll just start taking some iron supplements instead in case I bleed out.

jnk... wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm

What makes it such a ridiculous question is that if you have OSA you ALREADY can't breath at night without it.

It's like being afraid to drink water using a glass because that might make you thirsty.

Does someone need to study whether eating with a fork leads to a loss of the ability to eat sandwiches?

In the context of OSA, using a CPAP as a simple mechanical tool to be able to sleep well is something that cannot make the sleep-breathing problem worse. In fact it prevents the sleep-breathing problem from getting worse in some significant ways.

That's the point. Denial of those realities or delay in acting on them is less than wise as a personal choice. Though all are free to make it.

Let's see. I'm bleeding profusely from an artery right now, but I'm afraid that stopping that bleeding might not be the best choice. I think I should find some studies first on whether stopping the bleeding is really necessary for everyone in case I'm an exception. Maybe it's better that I just bleed all the time to get used to it. That way I won't be dependent on keeping my blood inside my body. After all, I wouldn't want to start causing myself internal-blood dependence. I think I'll just start taking some iron supplements in case I bleed out.

In the light of truth, the initial contention is completely without merit.
Isn't it cute when monkeys learn to type?

jnk... wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm

I think I'll just start taking some iron supplements instead in case I bleed out.

And don't forget to stay hydrated.

The *size* of the artery is a significant consideration too.

chunkyfrog wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:46 pm

Isn't it cute when monkeys learn to type?

euh... I just wish they'd label their stuff... like those signs "STUDENT DRIVER", so you know to give it a wide berth.