HAVE A SAY IN INNOVATION ! ! ! !

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:12 am

Arizona-Willie wrote:You could make a mask that prefectly fit the mold of the persons face but that is a far cry from fitting a living person whose facial contours change with different sleeping positions as gravity drags upon our cheeks.

Willie, I think you hit on exactly why a custom molded mask would probably be about as likely to leak as today's masks, in real sleeping conditions. Not only do the facial contours change with gravity doing its thing, but also these things pushing/pulling a mask could shift a "molded" mask out of position enough to start springing leaks:

Bed pillow pushing against side of face or side of mask.

Bed pillow pushing/pulling the headgear slightly one way or another, shifting the mask with the headgear.

Sleepers who turn from side to side or from back to side will have many subtle changes in the position of muscle/tissue under the perimeter of a mask. I don't think custom molded masks are the answer unless the mold is taken when a person is actually in their sleeping position (not sitting up for the mold...and not lying on their back if they usually sleep on their side, etc.) And then would work only if the person stays perfectly still in that particular sleeping position all night.

birdshell's thought about custom nasal pillows could work, but I don't think a custom molded mask in general (nasal mask or FF mask) would be much better than what we're already dealing with once the dynamics of face+gravity+moving-during-sleep came into play.

nomad · Post by **nomad** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:18 pm

beavnut33 wrote:THANK YOU to everyone who has posted in this forum. They have been most helpful. KEEP 'EM COMING. Now that i see that there is much interest in this subject, I will try to post my works so that you all can have a look. THANKS AGAIN. . . . : )

What's your time frame for having a prototype ready to test? More importantly, when do we get to see it? And, if and when you need a test subject, I'll gladly volunteer my services.

Are you hitting any snags in your design yet?

RG, as far as a custom mask goes, I think that if you hit on the right design (I was thinking something small) and harness system, you can have a mask that doesn't really move. IF you try to design one that's similar to the big, bulky ff masks that are on the market now, then yes, I'm sure a custom mask wouldn't be much better.

birdshell · Post by **birdshell** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:05 pm

rested gal wrote: Willie, I think you hit on exactly why a custom molded mask would probably be about as likely to leak as today's masks, in real sleeping conditions. Not only do the facial contours change with gravity doing its thing, but also these things pushing/pulling a mask could shift a "molded" mask out of position enough to start springing leaks:

(Snip)

birdshell's thought about custom nasal pillows could work, but I don't think a custom molded mask in general (nasal mask or FF mask) would be much better than what we're already dealing with once the dynamics of face+gravity+moving-during-sleep came into play.

Rested (if I may call you by your 'first' name ):

First, thanks for the support on custom nasal pillows (or at least sizing that could be different). I cannot wait for them, personally!

Secondly, I see your point about the mask fit and leaks. Never having worn a mask puts me at a disadvantage here, but I am still not so sure that a custom cast of the face could not work somehow.

When my orthotics are made, I lie on my tummy and flex my feet--then they are casted, the casts come off, and they are sent away to be made. The casts are not made with one in the same body position in which they are used. Feet+gravity+movement-during-walking come into play...

Although--feet ARE very different from faces, but the weight support and shifting as one walks is some significant changing of position. Of course, this is a supportive product and the mask lies on support from the face while the body is on the back, and clings to the face while in other positions.

With all of the soft gel and silicone products, it seems that if the underlying bone structure is taken into account there could be enough adjustability for a mask, but maybe I'm wrong. The challenge appears to be getting a soft enough, yet firmly structured enough material for the seals. How about a larger silicone 'flange' type of seal that would allow the red lines to be gone. An increased surface area might give the seal enough flexibility, yet have a clinging effect--if it does not make one too hot and bothered under the seal!

Interesting questions to be posed for designers, at least. Brainstorming is a great tool, and then we can sort through the ideas that are best and/or will actually be practical!

Anyone with a wild and crazy idea, please go ahead and post it because it may give someone else a basis for a sensible idea. Go for it!! We will not bite! We are nothing if not COOL!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:01 pm

Thanks again for everyone's input, again keep 'em coming. I notice that I have some very interested parties in this open discussion. That's wonderful because i have a strande request. I was hoping to collect to data on head and face measurements. The data I have from other hands-on measurments have started to point in a dirrection.

Measurements I hae taken include, Head circumference above the eyebrows, head hieght from eyebrow to bottom of chin, and head depth from cheekbones to back of head.

I realize this is a strange request and I don't expect alot of measurements, but those willing are more than welcome.

Again, keep the problems and suggestions coming. I beleive we're on to something!

beavnut33 · Post by **beavnut33** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:03 pm

Oh sorry, that was me, the designer. Thaks Again.

beavnut33 · Post by **beavnut33** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:04 pm

Thanks again for everyone's input, again keep 'em coming. I notice that I have some very interested parties in this open discussion. That's wonderful because i have a strande request. I was hoping to collect to data on head and face measurements. The data I have from other hands-on measurments have started to point in a dirrection.

Measurements I hae taken include, Head circumference above the eyebrows, head hieght from eyebrow to bottom of chin, and head depth from cheekbones to back of head.

I realize this is a strange request and I don't expect alot of measurements, but those willing are more than welcome.

Again, keep the problems and suggestions coming. I beleive we're on to something!

tooly125 · Post by **tooly125** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:06 pm

Don't forget about the high pressure crowd, the perfect mask should be able to go up to 20 without having to overtighten the straps.

If you come up with the perfect mask I hope you make millions but please remember there are a lot of us without insurance or whos insurance wont cover masks so try to keep it affordable!

Please test the heck out of it before releasing it make sure you work all the bugs out.

Hope you come out with something fantastic!

birdshell · Post by **birdshell** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:06 pm

I just couldn't let this one go. Lord knows I probably should have!

Beavnut33, you are talking to folks who tie pantyhose and fishing line to their interfaces/masks, apply velcro and fleece in various places, try moving up and down a size in nasal pillows or masks, wear headgear that came from different masks, have a museum of masks in their collection, have time to analyze software results daily, and ALSO clean all of the equipment, change filters, pack up and unpack the machine, hose, humidifier, cord, fix leaks in the humidifier tank, tape their mouths, use milk of magnesia and KY jelly and chapstick on their skin....well, you get the idea.

Now, does this sound like people who think that MEASURING THEIR HEADS would be a problem? Piece of cake, is more like it. Stand back--I think I hear a tidal wave in the distance. (Maybe posting a separate request would get you more measurements--folks who wouldn't suggest things might just measure.)

Above eyebrows around head: 22.5 inches

Mid-eyebrow (from lower) to bottom of chin: 6 inches--may need more specifics here--using a tape measure (I did) or ruler? from where on eyebrow to where on chin?

Head depth--do I do the flat ruler? Is this the cheekbone from the nose, and to where on the back of the head? 10.5 inches from the nose edge across cheekbone, ear and hair under tape, to center back of head.

See? I even need to discuss the measurements!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:08 pm

I'm a fairly new CPAPer and I still long for the ability to breath in at the nose and out at the mouth but I have a heavy beard (and I'll be darned if I will expose my jowles)

I've been toying with the idea of fabricating a short hose to connect the off-side plug on my Swift to the front intake on my Oracle 452.

It'd be nice to have that kind of scuba regulator arrangement & nasal pillow (or maybe prongs) in a single clean unit

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:29 pm

Again, wonderful posts people. Alot of great stuff. I'm now wondering about some of you person adjustments and quick fixes that you have implemented to your current masks in order to solve person problems with the interface.

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:15 pm

make it wireless

bdp522 · Post by **bdp522** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:16 pm

I use the hybrid mask. I use dental floss or a rubberband going from one top post to the other top post to hold the pillows closer to my face and closer to each other. I also removed the top clips from the mask and tied the headgear on, this eliminates the nasty marks I was getting from the clips.

Brenda

beavnut33 · Post by **beavnut33** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:37 pm

How about the actual CPAP machine. Any gripes to do with the actual usability of the humidifier with the cpap etc. . . ?

elliejose · Post by **elliejose** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:47 pm

More heat on the integrated humidifiers! My stand alone Humidaire puts out much more heat than the integrated humidifiers that I have used.!!

nomad · Post by **nomad** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:17 pm

beavnut33,

Can you tell us who you work for?

HAVE A SAY IN INNOVATION ! ! ! !

Re: Molded masks

Re: Molded masks