OT: Time out and/or Duke it out thread

[robysue]

Julie,

In my humble opinion you are treading on very thin ice when it comes to the use of your Spam button.

As multiple others have pointed out: Johnny's rules about the Spam button are short, clear, and unambiguous: The Spam button is to be used to remove SPAM and ONLY SPAM. It is NOT to be used to remove posts that you find personally offensive. It is NOT to be used to remove posts where someone strongly disagrees with you, even to the point of calling you names. It is NOT to be used to retaliate against another poster whom you believe is bullying you.

Under Johnny's rules you have the right to point out incorrect medical information posted by others and you can correct that information in quite strong and even inflammatory language if you care to. Under Johnny's rules you have the right to defend yourself. You even have the right to start a flame war in an effort to defend yourself. Hell, under Johnny's rules you even have the right to hijack a thread with a flame war in an effort to defend yourself against what you believe are unfair, unfounded personal attacks. But you do NOT have the right to remove another member's posts just because you believe them to be unfair personal attacks on you because that does NOT meet the definition of SPAM under Johnny's rules.

I would strongly suggest that if you believe PEF or others are bullying you in a totally inappropriate fashion, you should bring the issue to the Goodmans' attention through a PM. You can do that by looking them up in the Members list. You may not like what they tell you, however.

And you do need to be keenly aware that PEF and others who believe that you have inappropriately removed their posts with your Spam button have the right to take that grievance to the Goodmans. The Goodmans do take misuse of the Spam button seriously, and they do investigate charges of Spam button misuse: The forum software is powerful enough for them to detect that a particular message has been removed and who removed it. And should they discover that you have indeed abused the Spam button, they will warn you about your misbehavior. And if you continue to misuse the Spam button and that is brought to their attention, they can and will take the Spam button away from you. They most likely won't ban you from the forum, however.

If you do not like and cannot abide by Johnny's rules about the Spam button, then, as Pugsy put it, you ought to find a different sandbox to play in. Perhaps you might be more comfortable over at the apneaboard.com forum.

[Grace~~~]

I think the AVI post in reference to Bryansong hose hanger thread is a near perfect example of the best of what a forum can do. I think Chunkyfrog stepping up in the thread and making a little joke and then providing a link was great. I think the OP Bryansong was AWESOME in his response to AVI which added real humanity. Bryansong also ended like a STAR by telling us of his decision ... and any thread ending with 'The Sheriff' giving out the chosen advice makes *me* smile.

I am still blown away with what Johnny wrote all those years ago. It is so SPOT ON! It gives me hope that there still are people like that in this country and world. That was without a doubt the best thing I have read on any internet / interaction 'board?' --- EVER. (not that I have much experience)

I cannot believe that such perfect wisdom is not in effect EVERYWHERE? Freedom and respect should be the norm and then folks who like rules should be the ones who create controlled safe spaces. Not vice versa.

...but I live in Florida where the proliferation of dull soulless subdivisions create Home Owner Associations that just limit the residents own lifestyles and overall hold values down. The values are skyrocketing for houses that are NOT in an HOA as it has become so rare.

Freedom and the golden rule.

To *me*, it is the highest and best.

[Julie]

I get it, I really get it about the button! No confusion there... but apart from Sonnyboy and Nan Wilson who've come out in my defense, no one has said a word about how wrong it is to post medical info that has no factual basis and then dump all over the person correcting it. No one likes to be told they're wrong - I get that too (and get told plenty myself when it applies, often by PR who I still consider to be a friend), but if I'm so unpopular that you're all focusing just on the button thing now, rather than also suggesting that e.g. PEF and Sleepyeyes stop acting like creeps, then what's the point? If someone e.g. paints drivel on your house towards you, you wash it off, so my having 1-2 used the button on people who really put forth foul stuff against me (rather than argue issues) is not an abnormal reaction, even if it's against the rules.

You may not understand how it feels for the nasty stuff to be laid out if it's never happened to you, but it sure doesn't feel good at all and I seriously doubt my crying to Carolyn like a baby is smart recourse. There needs to be some balance, but apparently newbies with nasty notes are ignored (or even joined), but oldies being crapped on are not a problem (except, as I mentioned, to a few decent people here). I've already said I won't use the button again, but also asked that posters argue issues and not personalities, but apparently that's gone unheard.

[Madalot]

I've already said I won't use the button again, but also asked that posters argue issues and not personalities, but apparently that's gone unheard.

I get it Julie. Believe me I get it. I do understand how you feel. It is very hard to let outright wrong information stand and then when you try to argue the other side of it, you get attacked for it. Been there, done that.

You say you won't use the SPAM button again (in that manner anyway)? Good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned, you honor your word on that and you've made it right. That should be a done deal.

And as for your last comment, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Argue the ISSUES, not personalities. Amen to that.

[Julie]

Thank you! And I do wish you could be here more often anyway because your stuff is always interesting.

[avi123]

If they continue, so will deletions

So you think it's just fine to delete posts??? Outrageous I hope the Goodmans see this and remove your spam button immediately.

The Goodmans have not been active with this website for years. They are just passive.
Still, can I wish the Goodmans a Happy New Year (Shana Tova)?

[Pugsy]

The Goodmans have not been active with this website for years. They are just passive.
Still, can I wish the Goodmans a Happy New Year (Shana Tova)?

Simply not true. Carolyn is here often...sometimes daily. I see her logged on quite often.
Believe me ...she knows exactly what is going on here and conveys it to Johnny.
They just elect to not post here without what they feel is a good reason to post and they sure aren't going to try to referee the flame wars.

Johnny already made that point quite clear...he expects us to act like the adults we are and sort out problems on our own and he hopes we will do it in an adult manner which doesn't always work out that way...or else there wouldn't be a need for this thread.
But I have seen him step in or Carolyn step in when something really, really bad has happened and explain whatever action that they took and why. The banning of forum member calist was one of those times.
And as ugly as our flame wars are...they don't hold a candle to what calist did. Calist makes PR look like a saint.

[robysue]

no one has said a word about how wrong it is to post medical info that has no factual basis and then dump all over the person correcting it.

I specifically said that under the forum rules you are certainly entitled to correct medical information that you believe is incorrect.

But under the rules of this particular forum, the person you correct has the right to act like a jackass and respond with petty, personal insults. Is it moral when they do this? No. But they have the right under the forum's rules to make a jackass of themselves.

In my humble opinion, if the person you are correcting acts like an idiot and attacks you with foul language, the best policy is to just ignore that person. Do I always manage to live up to this policy? No, but I do try my best to live up to it.

Here's the thing: If your correction of incorrect or misleading information is genuinely persuasive, it can stand up to a personal attack from the person you corrected, particularly if you choose to NOT get into the gutter with the person attacking you.

if I'm so unpopular that you're all focusing just on the button thing now, rather than also suggesting that e.g. PEF and Sleepyeyes stop acting like creeps, then what's the point?

The point is this: Acting like a creep is not against the rules of the forum. Removing other people's posts IS AGAINST the rules of the forum, even when those people are acting like creeps.

And that's why so much conversation has focused on your open admission that you misused the Spam button to remove posts which you regard as unfair, personal attacks on you: You are the one who violated the rules of the forum. PEF and Sleepyeyes may have violated the common conventions of civilized conversation, but they have NOT violated the rules of the forum by using their Spam buttons to remove your posts, posts which they likely regard as unfair, personal attacks on them.

If someone e.g. paints drivel on your house towards you, you wash it off, so my having 1-2 used the button on people who really put forth foul stuff against me (rather than argue issues) is not an abnormal reaction, even if it's against the rules.

This is NOT your HOUSE and you don't get to make the rules.

If a poster posts stuff that you regard as crossing the line into really foul personal insults, the correct thing to do under the forum's rules is to contract the Goodmans about the offensive post. If the Goodmans agree the post violates their rules, the Goodmans will remove the post and warn the poster. It's the Goodman's HOUSE and they get to make the RULES. If you don't think the rules are stringent enough, then I strongly suggest that you consider wandering over to the apneaboard.com forums. I say that as a member of both forums.

Apneaboard runs a high quality and lively forum with a lot of discussion. And it is moderated and the moderators do step in before things get too heated. So if you or anybody else doesn't like how the Goodmans chose to set up this forum, please check out apneaboard: cpaptalk is NOT the only place you can participate in an OSA-patient driven forum where you can interact with others who are dedicated to making the world a better place for those of us suffering from OSA. On apneaboard you CAN make explicit comments and suggestions about changing pressures and other things related to therapy that are tantamount to "self-treatment". They're just as committed as we are to empowering CPAP users to take control of their own therapy.

You may not understand how it feels for the nasty stuff to be laid out if it's never happened to you, but it sure doesn't feel good at all and I seriously doubt my crying to Carolyn like a baby is smart recourse.

Julie, do not take this the wrong way.

I have had some nasty stuff happen to me over here. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened. I've learned that my best "defense" so to speak is to let my long history of high quality posts speak for me. I do not tend to get into flame wars or name calling contests, in part because I want to regard myself as above that kind of behavior and in part because I'm not actually a very good mudslinger. At this point, if someone makes a snarky or nasty personal insult about me, I do my best to just ignore it. Most of the time the person who decides to personally insult me shuts up after a few unanswered posts.

There needs to be some balance, but apparently newbies with nasty notes are ignored (or even joined), but oldies being crapped on are not a problem (except, as I mentioned, to a few decent people here).

The kind of balance you want would require the Goodmans to change their mind about running a minimally moderated forum, where minimally moderated errs on the side of approaching completely unmoderated.

Does that mean some newbies are alas not welcomed as they should be? Unfortunately the answer is yes. And one of Pugsy's purposes in starting this thread is to provide us old timers with a way of saying to the offenders: Take this nasty, useless set of personal insults over to the Time out and/or Duke it out thread and let the rest of us actually help the newbie OP with his/her problems.

I've already said I won't use the button again, but also asked that posters argue issues and not personalities, but apparently that's gone unheard.

It's nice that you are promising to not misuse your Spam button.

But as near as I can tell, you have not yet been willing to state pubicly in unambigious laguage that you were WRONG to remove PEF's posts with your Spam button.

You are the one who keeps bringing up how unfair it is that we've insisted that your use of the Spam button was WRONG rather than joining in with your criticism of the members who you said are "acting like creeps" towards you.

Personally, I think you owe a real apology to the forum members whose posts you removed with your Spam button, in addition to your promise to not do it again.

And our harping about your misuse of the Spam button *in this thread* is NOT arguing about personalities, but rather it is arguing about a very real issue of enforcing one of the few HARD rules this forum actually does have: Namely the rule that those of us with Spam buttons are to use those Spam buttons to remove SPAM and nothing except SPAM as defined by the Goodmans in their policy, a policy that SonnyBoy reminded us of in his post at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=114176&start=135#p1105287

[robysue]

And as ugly as our flame wars are...they don't hold a candle to what calist did. Calist makes PR look like a saint.

Ah calist.

The first Troll I had active warfare with.

I was a newbie with just under 3 months of PAPing when I tangled with him successfully enough to land on his "poll" of who should be banned from the forum.

[Madalot]

Oh yeah - Calist. He attempted to chew me up and spit me out. Tried to convince the entire forum that *I* am a liar by attempting to discredit me on the mode I was using on the Trilogy.

The good 'ole days....NOT!!! LOL

[49er]

Wasn't he suspected of making a return visit about 3 years ago? Sorry, I can't remember the exact time frame but a long term forum veteran said this troll sure sounded like him.

49er

[Sylvia54]

I really don't know what it is about me that so upsets you, but I am not deliberately provoking you. But when you started deleting my posts, you really crossed the line. Why don't you just put me on your foe list?

As you probably know, I am one of the "relatively newbie" people who Julie decides is an idiot and therefore periodically attacks with her condescending statements of fact. People like this are control freaks and think this type of behavior over the internet automatically makes them superior. It makes their day.

Think it was a couple months ago we were discussing ramp and pressure settings and she starts in with her scolding, saying I didn't know what I'm talking about or something like that.
So PR comes to my defense, quoted in part what I said, and told her I said nothing wrong.
Then PR changes the subject and starts telling me how to properly use the quote function.

I also had to laugh about the deleting of posts. I could go back to the few months I've been on here to review my posts. But I'm probably so sleep-deprived forgetful that I wouldn't know if she's deleted any of mine or not.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you're not on here to be devious or vindictive.

[Goofproof]

As far as the spam button, I had mine taken away, No explaination, no warning, no recourse. The bad thing the only thing I did wrong was to delete true spam. I got it back after about 6 months, probable after a forum rework.

I was not happy about it, I had five dogs I had to put down, without that spam they were starving, so I put them down so they wouldn't suffer a slow painful death. I still miss them. Jim

[Pugsy]

Wasn't he suspected of making a return visit about 3 years ago? Sorry, I can't remember the exact time frame but a long term forum veteran said this troll sure sounded like him.

I have seen some unregistered posts in the past (and yes, it's been a while) with calist in parentheses but with the forum software often attributing the wrong name because the IP address thing I didn't know for sure if it was him or not. I did notice that overall writing style and tone was very similar to his/hers. I didn't want to instigate another war so I held my breath and just ignored him/her in hopes that the "do not feed the troll" thing would actually work.

We can no longer assume that all the names in parentheses are past user screen names of the poster...I have seen some recently with Pugsy in parentheses and I know for sure I didn't make that post.
With the way the interweb is now with only so many IP addresses available and so many people using it I think we can expect to see more of the false history screen names.

[Julie]

Roby Sue - you said -

"But as near as I can tell, you have not yet been willing to state pubicly in unambigious laguage that you were WRONG to remove PEF's posts with your Spam button."

- Have you noticed that I am not your pupil, you are not the principal and I do not recognize your right to talk to me like that no matter what the circumstances?

"You are the one who keeps bringing up how unfair it is that we've insisted that your use of the Spam button was WRONG"

- I have actually never said that at all - your interpretation of anything I said is WRONG

"Personally, I think you owe a real apology to the forum members whose posts you removed with your Spam button, in addition to your promise to not do it again."

- You're joking, right? Are you going to send me to the back of the room and tell my mother?

I'm so gone from this horrible place... so gone.