support research on sleep apnea

Hang Fire wrote:Someday science will catch up with what these guys are telling you.

Yes, remember when all the scientists taught extraction orthodonists?

SteveGold wrote:

Janknitz wrote:
Nutrition definitely plays a role beginning with what your grandmother ate before and during her pregnancy with your mother. Females are born already with all the ova they will ever have, and the genetic die for their children have already been cast (though environmental insults can certainly worsen things!). Jaw development is affected by these epigenetics as much as by nutrition and environment directly affecting that individual.

Can you share any studies that have shown an epigenetic phenomenon related to jaw development?

Epigenetics is definitely a thing. There's been some interesting stuff about obesity (if someone overeats during prepubescence, decades later their children are far more likely to be obese) but this is new to me and, unless I'm misreading, seems to be hypothetical at this point. What you're describing sounds like Lamarkian evolution - the giraffe's neck is long because it stretches to reach the high branches, the shape of the sleep apnea sufferer's jaw is wrong because he didn't exercise it properly.

For the sake of clarification, it would be important to understand that the main topic being discussed in this thread is not epigenetics, and does not involve any inheritance. Therefore, it is not analogous to Lamarkian evolution, which would require that an acquired characteristic is heritable in subsequent generations. ("Lamarckism (or Lamarckian inheritance) is the idea that an organism can pass on characteristics that it acquired during its lifetime to its offspring (also known as heritability of acquired characteristics or soft inheritance)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism)

The main topic under discussion in this thread is just the simple effect of mechanical forces (such as from chewing) during childhood (while the bones are still growing) to influence the shape of the mandible (lower jaw) and maxilla (upper jaw) as the child grows (within the same individual...no inheritance implied, and no changes to genes or epigenetics implied). This effect has been known for some time and some orthodontists use it as a treatment. For example, here is a literature review and meta-analysis on the use of myofunctional therapy (i.e. mouth exercises) for sleep apnea, showing that it has efficacy, especially for pediatric sleep apnea.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25348130
And here is a webpage that demonstrates the exercises:
http://myofunctionaltherapy.blogspot.com/

The question of whether epigenetics also plays a role in determining the shape of the facial bones is a separate (and more speculative) question. (But for more info on that, check out this lead: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24075665.)

zoocrewphoto wrote:

Sheffey wrote: BTW, there also seems to also be something wrong in oro-nasal-maxillo-mandibular development that has to do with nasal congestion. Allergies during the developing years cause many individuals to spend significant time mouth breathing, especially while asleep. This seems to have a bad impact on development. But I understand that research often has to be focused and addressing the causes and prevention of abnormal oro-nasal-maxillo-mandibular development is a great project. Good luck in getting funding!

This makes more sense to me than diet. I have had allergies since I was a very small child. I had the testing when I was 5. I have been mostly a mouth breather all my life, and with narrow airways. Allergies, asthma, and sleep apnea. The narrow airway trifecta. I even got sent home from work today as the exhaust fans were broken. It was smokey for everybody, but my asthma was in high gear in less than 5 minutes. I made it less than an hour before being sent home. Took another hour to get my breathing back to normal.

Yes, the latest research does indicate that oral breathing can be an important causal factor in sleep apnea, especially in children. Here are some articles on that topic:

http://enlivenarchive.org/pediatrics-ne ... gy-001.pdf

http://download-v2.springer.com/static/ ... 6a711a8b6c

I'm sorry to hear that that has caused such problems for you, zoocrewphoto!

Wulfman... wrote: OSA... probably existed with humans (and even animals can have it) as long as they've inhabited the earth.

I am not aware of a documented case of OSA in an animal in the wild, or in a human forager (i.e. hunger/gatherer). So, I see no reason to assume that they get OSA.

Preposterous!

Just because you're unaware of something doesn't mean zip... and in fact it's been proven that animals (e.g. bulldog) have OSA, plus how many hunter-gatherer humans in 2015 are immediately tested for OSA upon being discovered in the e.g. Amazon - ones that you would even hear about? Or are you suggesting they are inherently different from us in some 'epigenetic' way?

Gawd!

Julie wrote:And I suggest you actually talk to an orthopedic or ENT surgeon about your jaw theories because you might get a surprise. Seriously. Before you spread any more half baked stuff.

There actually is a significant minority of sleep specialists and ENT doctors who are talking about this. Here are some comments by Dr. Steven Park about it:
http://doctorstevenpark.com/sleep-apnea ... rom-africa
http://doctorstevenpark.com/nutritional ... rom-africa
http://doctorstevenpark.com/tag/malocclusion/page/2

The sleep specialist doctor that I see talks about it. That is actually where I originally heard the idea. Like you, I was surprised and skeptical at first. But then I took some time to think about it and read up on it online, and I eventually realized that it actually makes sense and there is a lot of evidence supporting it.

But, the usual order of operations is that extensive research needs to happen first: Only after a new idea has been thoroughly documented do the majority of doctors tend to hear about it and start talking to their patients about it. That is why I feel that more research is needed.

Ok.. I've also done more thinking and reading, and while I still believe genetics is responsible for the anatomy we're born with, I also realize it's possible to change some things depending on what we do or don't do when young. Which I suppose is why orthodontists are cleaning up. And that how (& what) we chew may make a difference. Gee - it isn't often that someone here changes my mind - you deserve a medal!

Julie wrote:Ok.. I've also done more thinking and reading, and while I still believe genetics is responsible for the anatomy we're born with, I also realize it's possible to change some things depending on what we do or don't do when young. Which I suppose is why orthodontists are cleaning up. And that how (& what) we chew may make a difference. Gee - it isn't often that someone here changes my mind - you deserve a medal!

Thank you for saying this, Julie. Yes, as you describe, the genetic and non-genetic influences interact during childhood to determine the shape of the adult jaw.

(I suppose if I had thought, before starting this thread, about how novel of a topic this is for many people, I probably would have presented it somewhat differently from the beginning.)

For those who support further research to understand the causes of the airway structural features that contribute to sleep apnea, please consider voting for it on the NHLBI forum:
http://nhlbistrategicvisioning.ideascal ... 0728-32287
Voting ends on May 15, 2015. To vote just click on the up-arrow in the box to the right of the title, and you will be asked to enter your name and email address.

Thank you very much for showing your support for sleep apnea research!

I hope you're not suggesting that women stop breastfeeding because of this? The benefits far, far outweigh the possible negatives. And btw, you say that diet is "associated" with 'abnormal' development but don't go into real or proven details about it... ?? And I still take exception to the word abnormal even if there's some medical context to fit it into... it's almost like talking about conformation in dog structures/features that get judged in shows. People are not dogs (however much I like dogs).

Julie wrote:I hope you're not suggesting that women stop breastfeeding because of this?

Julie,

I think your are reading more into what the proposal says than it actually says. The proposal advocates studying the relationship between feeding method of infants (breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding) and the later development of OSA.

My own take on that statement is that bmdixon (author of the proposal and whom I assume is the same as bmd) probably expects that breast feeding may provide some kind of protection against OSA by preventing some of the "facial abnormalities" that are claimed to be common in industrialized countries, but rare in traditional, pre-industrialized cultures. Pre-industrialized cultures aren't really known for bottle-feeding after all.

That said, I have to say that I agree with you when you write:

And btw, you say that diet is "associated" with 'abnormal' development but don't go into real or proven details about it... ?? And I still take exception to the word abnormal even if there's some medical context to fit it into... it's almost like talking about conformation in dog structures/features that get judged in shows. People are not dogs (however much I like dogs).

Guess I'll have to re-read the thing to see if I misunderstood (have to learn to read slower!).

Julie wrote:I still take exception to the word abnormal

Julie, I believe the medical profession will continue to ignore your opinion.

In the photo on the left, the young girl has a poorly developed jaw and that is abnormal. In the photo on the right, her jaw has been corrected more to the normal with orthodontics.



Believe me when I tell you that my jaw is abnormal and my teeth are a mess and that has caused me bad health problems over the years, not the least of which is obstructive sleep apnea.

Oh, if my parents had known what I know today and if today's resources had been available way back when ... .

Think eugenics.
Or not.
Every generation has its bad ideas.

Sheffey wrote:In the photo on the left, the young girl has a poorly developed jaw and that is abnormal.

Yes, she had a bad overbite. Most likely this was due to some combination of lack of breastfeeding, poor diet and nasal congestion.