cognitive memory difficulties caused by Silent strokes

catpap wrote:Hi All!

I have just read these posts and I felt compelled to reply....

I am nearly a doctor / MD (well I qualify in a few months officially), in fact I'm currently on my Neuro / Brain surgery rotation and I just wanted to make a couple of points.
IF you feel you have problems / medical issues please go to your primary care provider and discuss with them so you can get the appropriate investigations and treatment

I did. Guess what she told me? Get some fresh air and walk during the day. I could have read that in an health article for centenarians. She didnt even offer an examination or even some low level sleeping pills like melatonin. Basically told me to F off because she didnt think it was worthwile to dig in to. Turns out i snore and have ahis. If i hadnt been diligent enough id not even consider trying to go to a sleep study and consider its possibly sleep apnea or sdb or something else.

catpap wrote: Please do not rely on Wikipedia / the Internet / Text books for self diagnosis, clinical trial, studies, papers and the like. YES if you are diagnosed with something (like OSA) then the internet is an amazing resource to become an expert in your condition, as many patients become - that's great because it means as a doctor and patient we can manage treatment together and find a course of action we both agree about and can get behind.

But please don't go self diagnosing - becoming a doctor has taken years of study and years of clinical experience on the wards, and what is so easily forgotten is the CONTEXT of information. Yes you can read about conditions, drugs and treatments but without the training to put it into context and apply it appropriately it means nothing.

As a very old and wise doctor once told me....

"You can download the instruction manual for Concorde on the internet.................. but it doesn't mean you can fly the plane!"

Thats not what anyone is saying. But sometimes one is disappointed in the general outcome one gets from meeting doctors that you basically become distraught and look it up yourself. While obviously its stupid to go on diagnosing complex diseases onto oneself. Sometimes you can be dead on.

Oh dear... I'm sorry if I offended you, really, but can you try and see things from where I sit? I spent my entire working life in teaching hospitals (Montreal and Toronto) surrounded by top doctors of all kinds. I appreciate that you may live in a less than medically perfect situation, and that some of the doctors may not be as up to date as they should be - there are many of those all over, not just Sweden - but the fact remains that they at least have gone to med school and you haven't, that they at least don't get their training from the internet and you're trying to.

It's a GOOD thing if a doctor looks something up - at least they're not guessing at it - and a good thing that you should be involved in your own treatment, but you are fooling yourself if you think that you'll find all the answers (I mean 100% scientifically confirmed by your doctor and tests) all by yourself with Google and that the last one you come up with must be the right one.

Of course you MAY incidentally, coincidentally hit on one thing one day, but you can't possibly take into account lab tests, x-rays, your history-as-interpreted-by a doctor who's objective (vs yourself) and can fit the pieces together properly, and know what treatments WON'T do damage while trying ones that might help... and not every drug or treatment designed for each condition works the same on every patient. What might SOUND to you like the 'of course' answer (everything seems to fit on paper), may sound all wrong to a doctor because they'll know the right questions to consider in deciding things, questions that would never occur to you. That's what education's for.

Yes, work with your doctors, but don't try to be one for yourself, and don't kid yourself that they're all fools because they're not, even if you disagree with things they say (and you don't always understand why they've said it).

"Sometimes you can be dead on" and sometimes you can just be dead.

Волко́в боя́ться — в лес не ходи́ть.

Or in loose translation: don't call the wolf out of the forest.

Drowsy Dancer wrote:Волко́в боя́ться — в лес не ходи́ть.

Or in loose translation: don't call the wolf out of the forest.

This made me laugh out loud. So folksy and peculiar. Were not in a siberian forest in a russian colony past the urals. But im glad you somehow made an ethnic interjection. And no im not trolling.

Julie wrote:Oh dear... I'm sorry if I offended you, really, but can you try and see things from where I sit? I spent my entire working life in teaching hospitals (Montreal and Toronto) surrounded by top doctors of all kinds. I appreciate that you may live in a less than medically perfect situation, and that some of the doctors may not be as up to date as they should be - there are many of those all over, not just Sweden - but the fact remains that they at least have gone to med school and you haven't, that they at least don't get their training from the internet and you're trying to.

It's a GOOD thing if a doctor looks something up - at least they're not guessing at it - and a good thing that you should be involved in your own treatment, but you are fooling yourself if you think that you'll find all the answers (I mean 100% scientifically confirmed by your doctor and tests) all by yourself with Google and that the last one you come up with must be the right one.

Of course you MAY incidentally, coincidentally hit on one thing one day, but you can't possibly take into account lab tests, x-rays, your history-as-interpreted-by a doctor who's objective (vs yourself) and can fit the pieces together properly, and know what treatments WON'T do damage while trying ones that might help... and not every drug or treatment designed for each condition works the same on every patient. What might SOUND to you like the 'of course' answer (everything seems to fit on paper), may sound all wrong to a doctor because they'll know the right questions to consider in deciding things, questions that would never occur to you. That's what education's for.

Yes, work with your doctors, but don't try to be one for yourself, and don't kid yourself that they're all fools because they're not, even if you disagree with things they say (and you don't always understand why they've said it).

"Sometimes you can be dead on" and sometimes you can just be dead.

I agree with 90% of what you said. I only disagree with part where you said that one should absolutely avoid looking up info because a doctors authority is always final. Sometimes you need to get 2n or 3rd or even 4th opinion before a doctors finally get to the node of the issue(especially if its ambigous).

Excuse me?

"I agree with 90% of what you said. I only disagree with part where you said that one should absolutely avoid looking up info because a doctors authority is always final. Sometimes you need to get 2n or 3rd or even 4th opinion before a doctors finally get to the node of the issue(especially if its ambigous).

Where in my note did I say any such thing? I'm starting to wonder if you are a troll! That's just BS!

I wanted to re-read all the posts you have made to try and get to the bottom of why you originally posted as I was getting lost in the "going round in circles" we seem to be doing so I have summarised the following main themes:

1)You report having finger weakness in the two lower digits in your right hand

2)You go looking for answers to this, look into carpel tunnel, ulnar damage then you find a South Korean clinical case where someone had a silent stroke related to OSA and think its a perfect match to your symptoms.

3) You are "pretty sure" you have sleep apnia but you have not actually been diagnosed with OSA.

4)You have not been diagnosed with silent stroke, TIA or Stroke.

5)You feel doctors in your country are terrible - so you are reluctant to see a doctor about any of this - however your posting on here because you "just want to know if anyone else experienced something similar due to sleep apnea. It would make it alot easier to handle" - however I repeat you have not had a diagnosis of OSA, TIA, silent stroke nor consulted a doctor about your symptoms.

6)You claim to come here asking for information / others experience however.......

7)Punchyandtired explained he/she had a brain MRI and was told it was clear - and your reply was.... "they usually don't appear as strokes. Just small cerebo vascular glitches. They're small enough for doctors to have to look for them".

An MRI IS when a doctor LOOKS for them! - it shows up quite clearly calcification that takes place in areas of previous infarct / ischemia. A trained radiologist would have sat in a dark room for some time going through the MRI scan in detail - Punchyandtired was told nothing was to be found because there was nothing to be found.

You then go on to say Gp's are the worst doctors and specialists are hit or miss. Your going to switch to a GP that's not terrible at their job and in the mean time research yourself about cognitive issues and OSA, even though you don't actually know if you have either?

9)You think that doctors do not keep up with the most recent medical education, and go on about how bad they all are. Doctors in every country work prescribing and treating using evidence based medicine - the cumulative knowledge of doctors, patients and researchers the world over. Guidelines are used in each country and regularly changed based upon the most up to date findings and treatments.

You have been given some amazing advice from a community of OSA sufferers, however no matter what anyone says you seem to know better, not listen to the advice and discussion that keeps repeating itself - all of this in the plain fact that you haven't had a diagnosis and by your own admittance will not go to a doctor.

I am afraid after re-reading all your posts the only logical explanation is that either you are trolling, hoping to ignite some kind of flame war on here, or you do actually have a medical condition.

If it is the latter I honestly believe its more psychiatric than physical and would urge you to see a medical professional as soon as you can - even if you feel they do not know what they are talking about go and see one and tell them all about your worries, concerns and your research into OSA, TIA's and silent strokes. Even your chosen name "tiredandscared" makes me concerned that you have some kind of anxiety disorder or hypochondriasis.

Catpap wrote:I wanted to re-read all the posts you have made to try and get to the bottom of why you originally posted as I was getting lost in the "going round in circles" we seem to be doing so I have summarised the following main themes:

1)You report having finger weakness in the two lower digits in your right hand

2)You go looking for answers to this, look into carpel tunnel, ulnar damage then you find a South Korean clinical case where someone had a silent stroke related to OSA and think its a perfect match to your symptoms.

3) You are "pretty sure" you have sleep apnia but you have not actually been diagnosed with OSA.

4)You have not been diagnosed with silent stroke, TIA or Stroke.

5)You feel doctors in your country are terrible - so you are reluctant to see a doctor about any of this - however your posting on here because you "just want to know if anyone else experienced something similar due to sleep apnea. It would make it alot easier to handle" - however I repeat you have not had a diagnosis of OSA, TIA, silent stroke nor consulted a doctor about your symptoms.

6)You claim to come here asking for information / others experience however.......

7)Punchyandtired explained he/she had a brain MRI and was told it was clear - and your reply was.... "they usually don't appear as strokes. Just small cerebo vascular glitches. They're small enough for doctors to have to look for them".

An MRI IS when a doctor LOOKS for them! - it shows up quite clearly calcification that takes place in areas of previous infarct / ischemia. A trained radiologist would have sat in a dark room for some time going through the MRI scan in detail - Punchyandtired was told nothing was to be found because there was nothing to be found.

You then go on to say Gp's are the worst doctors and specialists are hit or miss. Your going to switch to a GP that's not terrible at their job and in the mean time research yourself about cognitive issues and OSA, even though you don't actually know if you have either?

9)You think that doctors do not keep up with the most recent medical education, and go on about how bad they all are. Doctors in every country work prescribing and treating using evidence based medicine - the cumulative knowledge of doctors, patients and researchers the world over. Guidelines are used in each country and regularly changed based upon the most up to date findings and treatments.

You have been given some amazing advice from a community of OSA sufferers, however no matter what anyone says you seem to know better, not listen to the advice and discussion that keeps repeating itself - all of this in the plain fact that you haven't had a diagnosis and by your own admittance will not go to a doctor.

I am afraid after re-reading all your posts the only logical explanation is that either you are trolling, hoping to ignite some kind of flame war on here, or you do actually have a medical condition.

If it is the latter I honestly believe its more psychiatric than physical and would urge you to see a medical professional as soon as you can - even if you feel they do not know what they are talking about go and see one and tell them all about your worries, concerns and your research into OSA, TIA's and silent strokes. Even your chosen name "tiredandscared" makes me concerned that you have some kind of anxiety disorder or hypochondriasis.

You wrote 12 paragraphs just to call me a troll or a anxious hypochondriac. You're entitled to your opinion. Half of your anslysis is factually incorrect (please go reread my posts , im having a sleep study results within next week). The other half is quoted out of context for exaggerated effect. But im not going to waste time and energy. The latter being too scarce to counter your character assasination. Its why im not on here. So fine im a crazy hypochondriac troll whose only reason for being here is to start flame war(1. trolling is a waste of time 2. Trolling a forum for disease is senseless and stupid 3. Why would anyone troll a forum for OSA or asthma is beyond me). But atleast i dont resort to creepy low down methods to dismiss others. Screw it from now on im only posting about my sleep study and the results from it. Since alot of people of bent on going gung ho the moment they see a post they dont agree with. Not interested in forum drama or getting banned (It usually how it starts).

Dear tiredandscared

Please accept my apology if you feel my post was an attempt at a character assassination it was not I just got to appoint last night where I felt exasperated that someone without a diagnosis yet is basically worried about silent strokes, and I did not realise that you were currently undergoing a sleep study, so again Id like to say sorry.

I just think its such a big leap to start seriously talking about silent stroke from some finger symptoms.

We are all on here to help each other and support each other with OSA, and those that are seeking information about OSA and I hate to think that you would not post, that gets us nowhere.

I genuinely think that you should try not to worry about other things until you have the results of your sleep study and then try and find a doctor that will listen to you and that you trust to give you the treatment you want and give you peace of mind.

Finally I hope that you do not stop posting as it would be a shame, I hope we can get over this and continue the discussion.

tiredandscared wrote: You have way too much faith in the general ability of common doctors. I dont know what your experience with them has been. But here they're a hit or miss. Some GPs are so grossly incompetent they look at medical encyclopedias in middle of an appointment(anyone who can write at a rudimentary level can do that). Private gps are better but generally they're not up to date. Specialists are usually the best , especially if they they keep up to date. All those studies and recorded clinical cases are based on the work of doctors involved in research and they tend to be the part of the medical community with the most experience and most knowledge on the subject of their expertise. The ideal for doctors is to be up to date on research and knowledge. The general medical population rarely tend to keep such high standards(and the lower the tier is the worse the quality of treatment is). Ive meet a doctor who thought that airway acid reflux was all in my head. Sure enough a scope by a good ENT showed inflammation in the vocal cords. There are plenty of people who have an opposite experience, and granted we all base our views and opinions on personal anecdotes(since we dont have the data for health care outcomes available) . Im not sure why you'd be dismissive and angry about that.

22 years old and already a f&^%ing expert on doctors.




ChicagoGramps

I just realized something - we've all gotten tied up in the TIA thing, but something very basic was forgotten I think... T&S is 22, and TIA's occur almost exclusively (outside of patients with very unusual histories... not NLD tho') in older patients, much older than 22, so her worrying about them is seriously pointless and just adding to and feeding her anxiety. Should have realized that way earlier, and would have if she'd stuck to the one thread instead of starting this new one.