6 masks down, still haven't found anything that works.

[Pugsy]

Robysue....anyone trying to figure out how bad the leaks were with nasal masks.....I have seen leak reports from OP here...they are buried deep in his old threads.
His mouth opening (breathing/leaking/or whatever) was significant enough using nasal only interface masks that I told him he HAD to do something because it was really bad....and you know me...for me to say it was REALLY bad...it was bad.
I am pretty generous with allowing for some leaks being ugly...the bulk of his nights were ugly...well over 50% of the night..in fact it might have been easier to say that 25% of the night maybe the leaks weren't horrible..things were never very well controlled for any duration of time worth getting happy about.

If he doesn't want to tape or use a chin strap...FFM is all that is left.

Since he gets grouchy when someone is just trying to help and asks questions so they might better understand what needs fixing instead of sticking to his original request and only commenting on full face masks...I have stayed out of it because I have never used one so I am no help.
Besides I don't have much patience for grouchy when it is directed at people trying to help.

[digitalepiphany]

I really hate sounding rude. I know that everyone is just trying to help. And, I do appreciate it, regardless of how it may sound. I just hate having to explain things that don't really need explaining. If I say I need a FFM with chin support, then that's what I need. If I was unsure of that, I would've asked different questions. If my avatar showed that I joined the forum yesterday, I could understand someone questioning why I think I need a FFM with chin support. One look though, shows that I've been here for 6 months. I don't claim to know everything about CPAP, but I have been at this long enough to know which types of masks don't work for me, and why. I just like efficiency, and it makes me sound like a dick sometimes.

I was getting a bit irritated because there's only been one reply (that I can think of) to my actual question. I asked specifically for input on any of the problems I've had with the Air and the Simplus, as well as for suggestions of FFMs with chin support. The first response was asking me why I need a FFM, and suggesting the oral mask. Completely not what I asked. I gave a lot of detail on the FFMs I've tried thus far, as well as pointing out that I've tried every other type of mask out there (other than the oral mask). My initial post was already long enough as it was (one person even admitted to not reading the entire thing; not that I blame him/her), so why make it any longer with my entire history of failed nasal masks, nasal pillows, and hybrid masks? That would've taken me two hours to write, and everyone else at least 45 minutes to read. At that point it just becomes counterproductive, because no one is going to read that. And the goal here is to get help. I'm not going to get specific answers to my questions if I write a 5,000 word essay every time I need some info.

Maybe I am just a dick, but is it too much to ask that we stick to the matter at hand? There have to be more people on here that have used a FFM with chin support. I think it's time I started a new thread.

*EDIT: I take that back. There have been at least 3 replies specific to my questions.

[digitalepiphany]

Also, Pugsy, I did appreciate all your help on my other posts. I know that you use pillows almost exclusively, so I figured that was why you hadn't chimed in.

[Denial Dave]

I may have missed in the 6 pages of postings... but have you tried the std mirage quattro FFM?

the cushion tucks into the fold below your lower lip and solves quite a bit of any chin drop related leak issues

[SleepDisturbed]

I have only tried one FFM with chin support, the Forma, and it works OK, but I find that, for me, the medium is too small and the large is too big, so I moved on.

I have it in my closet and if you would like to have it (for free) just PM me a shipping address and I will send it out. Used, but only for a few nights, non smoker, no pets.

Sorry some of the replies went in other directions but that will happen on a forum! One of the charms, don't ya' know.

[stevebollinger@gmail.com]

Hey buddy, I feel your frustration! I also am looking for a FFM with UNDER-the-chin support. Aka a chin flap (chin cup): a part of the mask that cups UNDERNEATH the chin to hold it up. Almost ALL FFMs seal between the lower lip and the chin, pushing the lower jaw into the head making apnea worse not better. DUH on poor design!

I went through a love hate relationship with the first 3 Fischer-Paykels, 431, 432 and the Forma. (my understanding is that the Simplus does NOT cup under the chin - disappointment). What a fabulous Idea to have the seal go under the chin holding the lower jaw up and perhaps a bit forward. GREAT! But i have moderately high cheekbones. the 431 and 432 are built for people with flat faces and they dug mercilessly into my cheekbones = painful sleep and deep marks on my face for half a day every day . the Forma was much better on the cheek bones but has 3 other problems. 1. the chin flap is too small and my chin can easily fall out. FP PLEASE add another inch to the chin flap! 2. the biggest size, extra large, is really build for a medium face. My face is barely a large size and the top of the seal ends up below my nose bridge right where it cuts off my ability to breath through my nose. Again making Apnea worse. DUH again on poor design. FP PLEASE make a large Forma for a large face and please don't call your medium mask an extra-large! 3. the straps easily slip out of the attachment slots on the forehead cross bar.

The only other FFM with UNDER-the-chin support are:

1. Hans Rudolf 7600 v2. - I would get this and still might but CPAP dot com informs me that it is noisy and they get a number of returns because of this.

2. Innomed Hybrid. This is nasal pillows with under the chin support. I hate nasal pillows but may still give it a try.

I continue to sometimes use the total face mask FitLife by Respironics because it is so comfortable. but like the others my mouth falls open and I have very painful dry mouth. I would love if they would add a clin flap to the FitLife. I have no idea why chin flaps on CPAP masks have not caught on in a big way.

That is all I know right now. Cheers
Steve

[prion]

I have spent a good chunk of my CPAP treatment trying to find a "perfect" mask. After weeks on end I always come back
to my Resmed Mirage Quattro. I cannot tell if a mask actually gets "broken in" but it seems like every time I go back
to the Quattro it seems to work better. Yes it leaks in certain conditions but I have many nights where it works perfectly
now. Maybe I'm just learning it's characteristics and adapting to them. I think after spending almost as much on masks as
I spent on the CPAP device itself, including that ultra sticky gasket thing, I've come to the conclusion that the Quattro
is the mask I'll stay with and adapt to it's few warts that if I stay aware of my sleeping position I'm fine. I just thought
I'd find perfection. As long as my AHI stays under 1.0 most of the time, a little hassle with leaks is tolerable

[chunkyfrog]

My dearie wears a fitlife total face mask, but puts the bottom below his chin.
Sounds weird, but it makes a spiffy wave in his beard.

[digitalepiphany]

I may have missed in the 6 pages of postings... but have you tried the std mirage quattro FFM?

the cushion tucks into the fold below your lower lip and solves quite a bit of any chin drop related leak issues

I have not. I've only had the chance to use the Air and the Simplus so far. The Air also sits beneath the lower lip, which is why I was having problems with it. When my mouth would drop all the way open, my mouth was no longer contained by the mask. If the Quattro sits in the same spot, I probably won't be able to use that one either. Unless I wear a chin strap that it, but that's not gonna happen. Just personal preference. And, I'm not at the point yet that I have no other choice.

[Uncle_Bob]

Does anyone know of any good FFMs that have a chin-support piece like the Hans Rudolph 7600 (or any opinions on this one in particular)?

If you are looking for a full face mask that supports your chin to prevent jaw dropping then you are pissing against the wind.
There is no full face mask that supports jaw dropping that i am aware of. Getting good seal around your nose and mouth is tough enough without expecting the seal to remain if your jaw is dropping down on a so called chin support and pulling the mask down on your face.

Some of the masks with a chin supports come with the following disclaimer on cpap.com for a reason.

The chin support band 'is not' a chinstrap

Such support bands are for stability purposes only. And if you are using such a mask and jaw dropping then you are asking for a poor seal and leaks IMO.

Good luck. And if you are only going to try something for one night and dismiss it immediately then you are going to need it.

~UB

[digitalepiphany]

I have only tried one FFM with chin support, the Forma, and it works OK, but I find that, for me, the medium is too small and the large is too big, so I moved on.

I have it in my closet and if you would like to have it (for free) just PM me a shipping address and I will send it out. Used, but only for a few nights, non smoker, no pets.

Thanks for the offer. I'll keep that in mind. As far as I know, that's one 3 masks that have chin support, so that would help to narrow my search.

Sorry some of the replies went in other directions but that will happen on a forum! One of the charms, don't ya' know.

One of the reasons I asked about FFMs with chin support is because it's hard for me to find them on my own. As an example, I went to cpap.com to look for some. On the left-hand side is a box that allows you to sort masks by specific options. "Chin support" is not one of them. I went through a few pages, looking at the masks one-by-one, until I got fed up with that method. I figured it'd be far easier to just ask here. Only 4 have been mentioned so far (other than the Hans Rudolph I mentioned). I even just went back and re-read all the posts. So, here are the 4 mentioned thus far:

1. Respironics FullLife - I was told this has chin support. Looking at pictures on cpap.com, I see no chin support. Is that an extra piece that can be added/removed?
2. F&P FlexiFit HC432 - This one appears to seal below the chin, as opposed to having an actual chin support. I'm not pointing that out to say that it won't work, just that it's not a true chin support. I'm afraid I'd have to over-tighten it to keep it sealed. Still on my list though.
3. F&P Forma - Same thing as the FlexFit. In fact, it looks almost exactly the same, with just slight differences. Is the FlexFit just an updated Forma?
4. Hans Rudolph 7600 V2 - This is the only one mentioned so far that has an actual chin support. As far as I can remember, only one person has mentioned using it.

Are there any other FFMs with chin support that I can add to the list?

[digitalepiphany]

Hey buddy, I feel your frustration! I also am looking for a FFM with UNDER-the-chin support. Aka a chin flap (chin cup): a part of the mask that cups UNDERNEATH the chin to hold it up. Almost ALL FFMs seal between the lower lip and the chin, pushing the lower jaw into the head making apnea worse not better. DUH on poor design!

I went through a love hate relationship with the first 3 Fischer-Paykels, 431, 432 and the Forma. (my understanding is that the Simplus does NOT cup under the chin - disappointment). What a fabulous Idea to have the seal go under the chin holding the lower jaw up and perhaps a bit forward. GREAT! But i have moderately high cheekbones. the 431 and 432 are built for people with flat faces and they dug mercilessly into my cheekbones = painful sleep and deep marks on my face for half a day every day . the Forma was much better on the cheek bones but has 3 other problems. 1. the chin flap is too small and my chin can easily fall out. FP PLEASE add another inch to the chin flap! 2. the biggest size, extra large, is really build for a medium face. My face is barely a large size and the top of the seal ends up below my nose bridge right where it cuts off my ability to breath through my nose. Again making Apnea worse. DUH again on poor design. FP PLEASE make a large Forma for a large face and please don't call your medium mask an extra-large! 3. the straps easily slip out of the attachment slots on the forehead cross bar.

The only other FFM with UNDER-the-chin support are:

1. Hans Rudolf 7600 v2. - I would get this and still might but CPAP dot com informs me that it is noisy and they get a number of returns because of this.

That's the reason I'm hesitant to try it as well.

2. Innomed Hybrid. This is nasal pillows with under the chin support. I hate nasal pillows but may still give it a try.

The chin support on this mask works great for keeping your mouth closed. The seal on the mouth cushion also worked great for me. The problem I had with it (as well as many others) is that the pillows just seem to be at an odd angle (like angled away from the face), so it's difficult to actually keep them in your nostrils. It's still worth a shot though, because it's an otherwise great mask.

I continue to sometimes use the total face mask FitLife by Respironics because it is so comfortable. but like the others my mouth falls open and I have very painful dry mouth. I would love if they would add a clin flap to the FitLife. I have no idea why chin flaps on CPAP masks have not caught on in a big way.

That is all I know right now. Cheers
Steve

[digitalepiphany]

My dearie wears a fitlife total face mask, but puts the bottom below his chin.
Sounds weird, but it makes a spiffy wave in his beard.

I confused someone else's mask recommendation a few pages back for this mask. I'm going to have to re-comment on that one.

Anyway, I've always wondered how the air pressure doesn't irritate the eyes. Also, with so much more space for the air to travel through, how does that impact the pressures needed for treatment?

[digitalepiphany]

Does anyone know of any good FFMs that have a chin-support piece like the Hans Rudolph 7600 (or any opinions on this one in particular)?

If you are looking for a full face mask that supports your chin to prevent jaw dropping then you are pissing against the wind.
There is no full face mask that supports jaw dropping that i am aware of. Getting good seal around your nose and mouth is tough enough without expecting the seal to remain if your jaw is dropping down on a so called chin support and pulling the mask down on your face.

Some of the masks with a chin supports come with the following disclaimer on cpap.com for a reason.

The chin support band 'is not' a chinstrap

Such support bands are for stability purposes only. And if you are using such a mask and jaw dropping then you are asking for a poor seal and leaks IMO.

Good luck. And if you are only going to try something for one night and dismiss it immediately then you are going to need it.

~UB

Apparently, you didn't read all of my posts.

I have used the Innomed Hybrid. It has a chin support. I got a great seal with its mouth cushion, and my mouth stayed closed. No pissing in the wind here. A chin support, or that one at the very least, prevented my jaw from dropping and maintained a great seal.

Also, I have never tried something for just one night before dismissing it. I've tried all of my masks for at least 2 weeks (probably averaging closer to 4 or 5 weeks). All of the "fixes" I've used for various masks were also used for more than a week each.

The only thing I tried for one night is the chin strap. In fact, I didn't even use it that night. I tried it on. It didn't fit. So, I didn't use it. That was when I was still using nasal pillows. I was already using minimal headgear, so it's no big deal adding a chin strap to the mix. Now that I have to use a FFM, with more headgear, more stuff on my face, etc., I do not want to have to add anything else to the mix like a chin strap. I already have enough stuff on my face and head as it is.

[digitalepiphany]

I re-read all of the posts, and found a mistake I made. So, I'm correcting it now.

My hubby just began using the Full Life by Philips Respironics. He usually wears a large mask, but the medium fits in this one best. He has used the Amara (first mask), then the Quattro Air, briefly tried the SleepWeaver Anew and all leaked to various degrees. He's been using this just over a week & NO LEAKS! Now before you get excited remember everyone is different, but you might want to give it a try. He had some rubbing at his nose bridge, but I had some Gecko pads & that stopped the rubbing without affecting the seal. Its a funny looking mask but it sure works for him.

I've considered that mask, but I tend to sleep on the side of my face a lot. Even when I go to sleep on my back. I figured that if I was having problems keeping a good seal on these smaller masks, that I'd have a really tough time keeping that one sealed. May I'm wrong though. But, that one is still on my list, even if it is near the bottom.

My hubby is a stomach sleeper, very occasionally rolls onto his side, & him maintaining the seal is not a problem. We are both stunned at how well he is doing with this mask. Did I mention he has a beard & moustache? I don't know if you have facial hair, but I'm amazed. I thought he would have to live with some leakage, I was wrong.

I did have a full beard before I moved away from the pillows. I couldn't get my first hybrid mask to stop leaking, so I shaved it off. Unfortunately. Like I said, I still have that mask on my list, but it'll be a while before I get to it. If I were a multi-millionaire like Mr. Drummond, I'd just buy a ton of masks and try each one. Instead, I have to prioritize. Which is why I'm looking for a FFM with chin support. Hopefully, though, the Simplus will work out. It seems to be doing fine so far, other than the first 15 minutes I wore it.

One of the reasons I mentioned this mask is that you asked for a mask with a chin support, see the link below. This mask HAS chin support, and I think the chin support might be the reason my hubby has had success with this mask.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... dgear.html

The chin strap in the picture shows rather close to the throat, but in actuality it fits closer to the front of the chin. I know its further down on your list, I was just trying to respond to what you asked. I hope you find the best mask for you, whatever that may be.

For some reason, when I read your post, I was thinking of the total face mask. You know the one that actually covers the entire face? Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason I was confused about the leaking around the eyes is because I thought it was another mask. Obviously, this mask isn't supposed to be blowing air into your eyes. Mea culpa.