6 masks down, still haven't found anything that works.

[digitalepiphany]

Hi try the flexifit 432 ffm or the forma as that has a foam chin support,
that's really comfortable.
Hope this helps

I assume you've used both of them? How'd they work out? Any issues?

[SleepySleepNeeder]

You're right, I didn't read back along the full three pages. I think at some point the conversation becomes to multi-threaded and it's better to begin a new discussion. And I'm new to this forum and have spent very little time on any forums ever, so whatever tricks are necessary I won't be using them. I just popped in to ask a question of my own and saw a couple questions I thought I could help out with.

You said the VA provides your equipment - thank you for your service. What branch?

I think that chin strap I linked to can be had for around $10 if you look around (just search for 'deluxe chin strap'). But the VA provides mine, and I get a new one several times a year. If the VA provides yours, they should be helping you find one that works for you. I have a couple unused extras laying around, if you want to PM your address to me I will mail one to you.

Does the VA cover your dental? If so, you may be able to get something like what I just got. I thought the advertisements on TV about those adjustable mouthpieces that are supposed to stop snoring and apnea looked interesting, they are supposed to move your lower jaw forward to open up your air passages as jaw movement can restrict the air flow, so I researched it. It turns out that most all of the mouthpieces (and there are a lot of different ones on the market, at a wide price range, from do-it-yourself boil-the-mouthpiece kind of home kits to the kind where you go to an orthodontist to get fitted) have a breathing hole in them. Some of them are used with CPAP machines, i.e. you can hook the machine up to it. Since you are a mouth breather at night, that may be your best bet. And with a mouthpiece in, it will take up most of the room your jaw has to fall open and let air escape. Add in a chin strap to help hold it in place and it might be your best bet.

I ended up having the VA dentist make me a custom mouthpiece without a hole so I could use mine with my nasal pillows and mouth closed on the mouthpiece. But it turns out that they do have and fit the type with the breathing hole. If you have VA dental benefits, perhaps your dentist could get in touch with mine to work something out for you? It's in the Clarksburg, WV VA Hospital.

[digitalepiphany]

You're right, I didn't read back along the full three pages. I think at some point the conversation becomes to multi-threaded and it's better to begin a new discussion. And I'm new to this forum and have spent very little time on any forums ever, so whatever tricks are necessary I won't be using them. I just popped in to ask a question of my own and saw a couple questions I thought I could help out with.

Not your fault. I didn't mean it to sound like I was jumping on you for not reading all the posts. I could just tell that you hadn't, is all. This is why I was wanting to keep this thread on a specific track. I was having issues with some FFMs, and just wanted advice on that. But, as with anything, it got a bit off track. I may not have been very clear up front (I haven't re-read that post in a while), so I'm not laying blame anywhere. No biggie. I may just start a new thread specifically asking for anyone's input on FFMs with chin support.

You said the VA provides your equipment - thank you for your service. What branch?

Thanks. You too. Air Force. You?

I think that chin strap I linked to can be had for around $10 if you look around (just search for 'deluxe chin strap'). But the VA provides mine, and I get a new one several times a year. If the VA provides yours, they should be helping you find one that works for you. I have a couple unused extras laying around, if you want to PM your address to me I will mail one to you.

I appreciate the offer, but I'd really rather not use a chin strap at all. Too much extra stuff to deal with. Just to illustrate this point, I couldn't tell you where my current one is. I really have absolutely no idea where to even begin looking for it. Sleep apnea hasn't made me the most organized person.

Does the VA cover your dental? If so, you may be able to get something like what I just got. I thought the advertisements on TV about those adjustable mouthpieces that are supposed to stop snoring and apnea looked interesting, they are supposed to move your lower jaw forward to open up your air passages as jaw movement can restrict the air flow, so I researched it. It turns out that most all of the mouthpieces (and there are a lot of different ones on the market, at a wide price range, from do-it-yourself boil-the-mouthpiece kind of home kits to the kind where you go to an orthodontist to get fitted) have a breathing hole in them. Some of them are used with CPAP machines, i.e. you can hook the machine up to it. Since you are a mouth breather at night, that may be your best bet. And with a mouthpiece in, it will take up most of the room your jaw has to fall open and let air escape. Add in a chin strap to help hold it in place and it might be your best bet.

The VA doesn't cover my dental. If I were SC for sleep apnea (I should be; it's just a matter of "lost" records), I don't think it'd be a problem getting them to do that for me if my apnea treatment warranted it.

I ended up having the VA dentist make me a custom mouthpiece without a hole so I could use mine with my nasal pillows and mouth closed on the mouthpiece. But it turns out that they do have and fit the type with the breathing hole. If you have VA dental benefits, perhaps your dentist could get in touch with mine to work something out for you? It's in the Clarksburg, WV VA Hospital.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Hello Digital,

I understand - you are not a mouth breather, but for some reason the back of your throat doesn't seal properly and the pressure from a nasal only mask escapes into your mouth causing loss of therapy, discomfort, and disturbance. A full face mask corrects this by equalizing the pressure at the mouth and nose so that air is no longer forced out the mouth, but compounding the situation is the fact that sometimes your jaw drops so far that your mouth falls out of the bottom of the mask and again therapy is lost and sleep is disturbed by the leak.

Me too!

I also tried all the remedies before swithching to a FFM, tape, glue, chin straps, etc., but the only thing that would stop the throat leaks was a FFM, but of course, that didn't stop the jaw drops. After fiddling round for a while, I came up with a strap, attached to the mask, a chin strap of sorts, that prevented my jaw from dropping so far. The purpose of this strap is not to prevent mouth leaks by keeping the mouth shut, it is just to prevent the mouth from falling out of the mask, so it doesn't have to be tight, just snugged up a little.

After I wore this strap for a while, maybe a couple of months, I found I no longer needed it. Somehow, I had learned to keep my mouth inside the mask. I guess like those folks that learn to keep their throats closed.

As far as masks go, I've tried most of them. Hybrids, Hans Rudolph, Fit Full Face, etc., etc. The two that have worked best for me are the Mirage Quattro and the Simplus. I can adjust both to be nearly leak free.

Here's a link to my mask strap: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=85334#p776113 You can rig it up out of most any old strap material you might have lying around. It might work, or it might not, but you won't be out much to give it a try.

Good luck!

[SleepySleepNeeder]

Thanks. You too. Air Force. You?

Air Force also.

I appreciate the offer, but I'd really rather not use a chin strap at all. Too much extra stuff to deal with. Just to illustrate this point, I couldn't tell you where my current one is. I really have absolutely no idea where to even begin looking for it. Sleep apnea hasn't made me the most organized person.

I can hear the frustration and memory issues in your words, and those are some really harsh side effect of chronic sleep deprivation (among others). I will tell you this - with good restful sleep, issues like keeping track of your chin strap become non-issues. Don't let the fact that you are currently unable to find your chin strap side-track you, if you hit on the right solution that issue will go away. Not preaching here, just speaking from experience.

It seems the key is that you are a mouth breather and nothing can stop that. The thing is, there are oral masks with a mouthpiece that allow you to just breath through the mouth. A chin strap would also help keep it in place, but an educated guess is that your mouth is coming open because you are gasping for air, and if you were getting that air, everything would probably stay in place. The open mouth is an unnatural position and is probably a subconscious/learned thing that would go away with proper treatment. And trust me, keeping track of any chin strap you might need is nothing, you just keep it with the headgear.

You should be able to take this information to the VA and they should get that mask for you, as well as the deluxe chin strap. Don't be deterred or sidetracked by the frustration, it's all up to you to get it resolved. Stick with it!

Here is one oral mask you can try: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/fisher ... -mask.html

[jencat824]

One of the reasons I mentioned this mask is that you asked for a mask with a chin support, see the link below. This mask HAS chin support, and I think the chin support might be the reason my hubby has had success with this mask.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... dgear.html

The chin strap in the picture shows rather close to the throat, but in actuality it fits closer to the front of the chin. I know its further down on your list, I was just trying to respond to what you asked. I hope you find the best mask for you, whatever that may be.

I appreciate the suggestion. The chin support is one of the reasons that mask is on my list. The reason it's at the bottom though, is because it's really big, it seems like the air pressure would irritate my eyes, and it just seems like a mask for a last-ditch, extreme effort to get something that works. I'd prefer to try a "normal" FFM with chin support first. My reasons may not be rational, but it is the way I see the mask.

I saw this mask as huge too, but once it was shipped to my hubby, it doesn't look any larger than the Quatro Air or the Amara, just more straps. The eye irritation was an issue for my hubby at first, but when he switched to the medium cushion from the large, the eye leaks stopped. He has been extremely lucky with this mask, but that does not mean you would be. I just wanted you to know for this & any other FFM's if you are having eye issues with the Large cushion, you might want to try a Medium, for my hubby that has worked for 'eye blowing' issues.

[digitalepiphany]

Hello Digital,

I understand - you are not a mouth breather, but for some reason the back of your throat doesn't seal properly and the pressure from a nasal only mask escapes into your mouth causing loss of therapy, discomfort, and disturbance. A full face mask corrects this by equalizing the pressure at the mouth and nose so that air is no longer forced out the mouth, but compounding the situation is the fact that sometimes your jaw drops so far that your mouth falls out of the bottom of the mask and again therapy is lost and sleep is disturbed by the leak.

Me too!

I also tried all the remedies before swithching to a FFM, tape, glue, chin straps, etc., but the only thing that would stop the throat leaks was a FFM, but of course, that didn't stop the jaw drops. After fiddling round for a while, I came up with a strap, attached to the mask, a chin strap of sorts, that prevented my jaw from dropping so far. The purpose of this strap is not to prevent mouth leaks by keeping the mouth shut, it is just to prevent the mouth from falling out of the mask, so it doesn't have to be tight, just snugged up a little.

I actually just saw your thread on that before reading this post. I'll keep it in mind. In fact, I better bookmark so I don't forget about it.

After I wore this strap for a while, maybe a couple of months, I found I no longer needed it. Somehow, I had learned to keep my mouth inside the mask. I guess like those folks that learn to keep their throats closed.

As far as masks go, I've tried most of them. Hybrids, Hans Rudolph, Fit Full Face, etc., etc. The two that have worked best for me are the Mirage Quattro and the Simplus. I can adjust both to be nearly leak free.

What were the issues with the Hans Rudolph. Also, was it the V2, or the original one?

Here's a link to my mask strap: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=85334#p776113 You can rig it up out of most any old strap material you might have lying around. It might work, or it might not, but you won't be out much to give it a try.

Good luck!

[Jay Aitchsee]

What were the issues with the Hans Rudolph. Also, was it the V2, or the original one?

I got the v2 with the chin cup. I thought it would be perfect, but it just didn't work for me. It leaked excessively and the chin cup didn't support my chin as I thought it would. I think mine was a little small, but I didn't want to go through the expense of trying a larger one. Of course, my experience doesn't mean that it would not be perfect for you.

[digitalepiphany]

Thanks. You too. Air Force. You?

Air Force also.

I appreciate the offer, but I'd really rather not use a chin strap at all. Too much extra stuff to deal with. Just to illustrate this point, I couldn't tell you where my current one is. I really have absolutely no idea where to even begin looking for it. Sleep apnea hasn't made me the most organized person.

I can hear the frustration and memory issues in your words, and those are some really harsh side effect of chronic sleep deprivation (among others). I will tell you this - with good restful sleep, issues like keeping track of your chin strap become non-issues. Don't let the fact that you are currently unable to find your chin strap side-track you, if you hit on the right solution that issue will go away. Not preaching here, just speaking from experience.

It seems the key is that you are a mouth breather and nothing can stop that. The thing is, there are oral masks with a mouthpiece that allow you to just breath through the mouth. A chin strap would also help keep it in place, but an educated guess is that your mouth is coming open because you are gasping for air, and if you were getting that air, everything would probably stay in place. The open mouth is an unnatural position and is probably a subconscious/learned thing that would go away with proper treatment. And trust me, keeping track of any chin strap you might need is nothing, you just keep it with the headgear.

You should be able to take this information to the VA and they should get that mask for you, as well as the deluxe chin strap. Don't be deterred or sidetracked by the frustration, it's all up to you to get it resolved. Stick with it!

Here is one oral mask you can try: https://www.cpap.com/productpage/fisher ... -mask.html

Honestly, finding the chin strap doesn't really concern me. I stopped using it after the first night, put it away somewhere, and never gave it a second thought. Until I mentioned it, that is. I'd still prefer not to use one, as there are masks out there with built-in chin support. I would just prefer to get some input from people on this board concerning these masks so that I can make an educated decision on my next mask.

With the Simplus, my mouth still falls open, but it rarely breaks the seal. This is why my guy gave me the larger size. Like I said, though, the larger size has its own problems, like leaking near the eyes. I have to be 100% certain that the mask is positioned in just the right spot, then I have to tighten everything down so that it doesn't shift. This is only because the mask is too large for my face. But, again, the larger size also keeps my mouth in the mask when it drops open.

Last night (today, really; I slept for 18 hours and 34 minutes), I woke up several times (because of alarm clocks, which still didn't wake me up), and noticed that my mouth was gaping open. But, I still had a near-perfect seal. I was also breathing through my nose. Now, I'm not sure if the nose-breathing is just something I started doing as I came awake, or if I was nose-breathing before I woke. Regardless, I have noticed some mouth-breathing in the past, and it doesn't really matter as far as my mouth coming open is concerned.

I say all this to point out that I cannot use an oral mask. If I did, I'd have to close off my nostrils somehow (I know the mask comes with something for this). One of the problems is that I find it uncomfortable to breathe through my mouth, especially when going to sleep. I had to do that for about a week with the hybrid due to sinusitis. Here's the way I look at it: if I had so much trouble trying to keep my mouth/lips closed so that I could breathe through my nose, then who's to say I won't have just as hard a time keeping my nostrils sealed closed so that I can breathe through my mouth?

[digitalepiphany]

One of the reasons I mentioned this mask is that you asked for a mask with a chin support, see the link below. This mask HAS chin support, and I think the chin support might be the reason my hubby has had success with this mask.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... dgear.html

The chin strap in the picture shows rather close to the throat, but in actuality it fits closer to the front of the chin. I know its further down on your list, I was just trying to respond to what you asked. I hope you find the best mask for you, whatever that may be.

I appreciate the suggestion. The chin support is one of the reasons that mask is on my list. The reason it's at the bottom though, is because it's really big, it seems like the air pressure would irritate my eyes, and it just seems like a mask for a last-ditch, extreme effort to get something that works. I'd prefer to try a "normal" FFM with chin support first. My reasons may not be rational, but it is the way I see the mask.

I saw this mask as huge too, but once it was shipped to my hubby, it doesn't look any larger than the Quatro Air or the Amara, just more straps. The eye irritation was an issue for my hubby at first, but when he switched to the medium cushion from the large, the eye leaks stopped. He has been extremely lucky with this mask, but that does not mean you would be. I just wanted you to know for this & any other FFM's if you are having eye issues with the Large cushion, you might want to try a Medium, for my hubby that has worked for 'eye blowing' issues.

How did moving to a smaller mask help with eye leaking? The mask covers the eyes, so there would be air blowing into your eyes regardless, right? Or are you talking about something else entirely? I'm kind of confused. This is the mask that covers the entire face, right?

[digitalepiphany]

What were the issues with the Hans Rudolph. Also, was it the V2, or the original one?

I got the v2 with the chin cup. I thought it would be perfect, but it just didn't work for me. It leaked excessively and the chin cup didn't support my chin as I thought it would. I think mine was a little small, but I didn't want to go through the expense of trying a larger one. Of course, my experience doesn't mean that it would not be perfect for you.

Was it leaking at the bridge?

Have you used either of the hybrids, the Air, or the Simplus? If so, where did they tend to leak on you?

The reason I ask is because if you've had similar leaks with the other masks (which I have used as well), then I can compare your results with mine. That way, if we tended to have the same problems on the other masks, then I could postulate, with a higher certainty, that I would have the same issues with the Hans Rudolph.

This actually reminded me of an idea I had about mask fitting. Someone should start a company that will use that laser-scanning device (the one that digitizes things or people into 3D on a computer) to scan patient's heads, then use that information to fit them with the proper mask. Of course, the masks would also have to be scanned. I think this would save people so much time getting effective treatment, and possibly keep some people from dropping treatment altogether.

I don't know how feasible it'd be, but it sounds like a good idea to me.

[SleepySleepNeeder]

I say all this to point out that I cannot use an oral mask. If I did, I'd have to close off my nostrils somehow (I know the mask comes with something for this). One of the problems is that I find it uncomfortable to breathe through my mouth, especially when going to sleep. I had to do that for about a week with the hybrid due to sinusitis. Here's the way I look at it: if I had so much trouble trying to keep my mouth/lips closed so that I could breathe through my nose, then who's to say I won't have just as hard a time keeping my nostrils sealed closed so that I can breathe through my mouth?

I'm starting to understand that you will not try anything you don't think will work. But try this: pinch your nose shut and try to inflate it with air pressure. You have to move your tongue back to block off the mouth air passage in order to force the pressurized air into the nasal passages. Now put your hand over your mouth and try to blow out your nose. You have to move the tongue forward. There is a neutral position for your tongue so that you can breath through mouth and nose, but you have to almost deliberately and consciously hold it there, the tongue won't naturally stay in that position, especially if you are asleep. Anyhow, the point is, with the mouth in the closed position, the tongue naturally moves to the position to block mouth breathing (which is why holding the mouth closed with a chin strap is important if you use a nasal mask). With the mouth open (and that includes with a mouthpiece in), the nasal passages are naturally blocked. Nose plugs may help prevent some leakage, especially at higher pressures (I get some mouth leakage even closed, but it's insignificant).

Just something to keep in mind should your mission to find a FFM that seals fail.

[digitalepiphany]

I'm starting to understand that you will not try anything you don't think will work. But try this: pinch your nose shut and try to inflate it with air pressure. You have to move your tongue back to block off the mouth air passage in order to force the pressurized air into the nasal passages. Now put your hand over your mouth and try to blow out your nose. You have to move the tongue forward. Not true. You can breathe through your nose with your tongue in any position, so long as your mouth is closed. I just tried it. With the mouth open, that's a different story. The tongue must block the airway in that scenario. Regardless, I'm not sure what this has to do with the oral mask. There is a neutral position for your tongue so that you can breath through mouth and nose, but you have to almost deliberately and consciously hold it there, the tongue won't naturally stay in that position, especially if you are asleep. Anyhow, the point is, with the mouth in the closed position, the tongue naturally moves to the position to block mouth breathing (which is why holding the mouth closed with a chin strap is important if you use a nasal mask). With the mouth open (and that includes with a mouthpiece in), the nasal passages are naturally blocked. Nose plugs may help prevent some leakage, especially at higher pressures (I get some mouth leakage even closed, but it's insignificant). And what happens if the tongue falls back into the "blocking" position? Would the constant pressure keep it in that position, causing leaks to the mask? This would also cause you to breathe through the nose, but if it's blocked, what then? I'm being completely serious here. I'm not saying any of this just to be contrarian.

Just something to keep in mind should your mission to find a FFM that seals fail.

It's not that I refuse to try "anything" if I don't think it will work. I've tried all kinds of things that I thought wouldn't work, and they wound up not working. I just refuse to get the VA to pay for a mask that I'm almost 100% sure won't work for me. Like I said, for the most part I breathe through my nose. I find it very uncomfortable to breathe through my mouth. At least when trying to fall to sleep.

As far as tongue position is concerned, I have woken up with my mouth open, but my tongue blocking my airway, so that I was breathing through my nose. Just because the mouth is open, doesn't mean that I'm automatically mouth-breathing. Of course, there have been other times where my mouth came open and I was mouth-breathing.

Basically, what it comes down to is. I went with the FFM to accommodate the occasional mouth-breathing, not so that I could mouth-breathe 100% of the time. I find it to be very uncomfortable to be forced to breathe through my mouth all the time. This is the main reason (probably 99.999% of the reason) why I don't want to try the Oracle oral mask.

[robysue]

digitalepiphany,

I know that you're frustrated with the responses to your original post in this thread.

But part of the problem is that many of us remain confused about what your problem is and why you think or know you need to use a FFM.

In an earlier post, you wrote

But, I'm going to say this one more time.

I DO NOT MOUTH-BREATHE.

I mouth-leak on occasion at night. I breathe primarily through my nose.

and

I went with the FFM to accommodate the occasional mouth-breathing, not so that I could mouth-breathe 100% of the time.

But you've also written:

I covered the mouth-leak issue in separate posts. Yes, it's true that probably none of you have seen those posts. I just figured that you'd all take my word for it, and just give suggestions about FFMs. Regardless, the mouth leaks were a huge issue. It wasn't just a couple minutes at a time a couple times per night. My mouth would drop open and stay open for hours at a time, with therapy air leaking out the entire time.

So which is it? Do you mouth-leak on occasion or do you mouth-leak for hours at a time? It can't be both.

If the mouth-leak problem really is occasional, then there's no real need for a FFM if a nasal mask or a nasal pillows mask is more comfortable. But if the problem is that you mouth-leak for hours on end, then a FFM probably is needed.

And the thing is: A properly fitted FFM should NOT require a chin support to try to keep the mouth from opening---a properly fitted FFM should allow the user to open the mouth without breaking the seal.

But in order for others to be able to make reasonable suggestions about what FFM to possibly try OR suggestions on how to make the FFM you already have work better, they need to have a better sense of exactly what the problems with the current masks actually are.

[digitalepiphany]

digitalepiphany,

I know that you're frustrated with the responses to your original post in this thread.

But part of the problem is that many of us remain confused about what your problem is and why you think or know you need to use a FFM.

In an earlier post, you wrote

But, I'm going to say this one more time.

I DO NOT MOUTH-BREATHE.

I mouth-leak on occasion at night. I breathe primarily through my nose.

and

I went with the FFM to accommodate the occasional mouth-breathing, not so that I could mouth-breathe 100% of the time.

But you've also written:

I covered the mouth-leak issue in separate posts. Yes, it's true that probably none of you have seen those posts. I just figured that you'd all take my word for it, and just give suggestions about FFMs. Regardless, the mouth leaks were a huge issue. It wasn't just a couple minutes at a time a couple times per night. My mouth would drop open and stay open for hours at a time, with therapy air leaking out the entire time.

So which is it? Do you mouth-leak on occasion or do you mouth-leak for hours at a time? It can't be both.

If the mouth-leak problem really is occasional, then there's no real need for a FFM if a nasal mask or a nasal pillows mask is more comfortable. But if the problem is that you mouth-leak for hours on end, then a FFM probably is needed.

And the thing is: A properly fitted FFM should NOT require a chin support to try to keep the mouth from opening---a properly fitted FFM should allow the user to open the mouth without breaking the seal.

But in order for others to be able to make reasonable suggestions about what FFM to possibly try OR suggestions on how to make the FFM you already have work better, they need to have a better sense of exactly what the problems with the current masks actually are.

Mouth-leaking, mouth-breathing, whether I need a FFM or not. None of that matters. I started this thread to get suggestions on FFMs with chin support, not to get opinions on whether I need a FFM or not, or to start a discussion about whether chin supports on FFMs are useful or not. This thread has just gotten way off track. I just want peoples' opinion on FFMs with chin support.

But, to address your questions, the mouth dropping open for hours at a time wasn't every night, but it did happen often enough that it was a problem. Generally, it doesn't stay open that long. Still, even if I have a total of one hour every night of this happening, it still negatively impacts therapy. So, for most of the night, every night, I breathe through my nose. So, I need a FFM. I also need to be able to keep my mouth closed. I don't like chin straps (granted, that's based on my experience with the only one I've tried), so I need to come up with a different solution.

With the Resmed Liberty, my mouth would still drop open, but I never wound up "eating" the cushion like I did with the Air (nor has this happened with the Simplus). Instead, it would just cause the mask to shift around, which caused even more leaks than I was already dealing with with this mask. Horrible mask, by the way. I do not suggest it for anyone. The Innomed Hybrid. however, had chin support. I never had a problem with my mouth dropping open with this one. It stayed firmly closed. It would allow my lips to part (indicating that my mouth opened very slightly), but it never caused any additional leaks. The problem I had with this mask was getting a seal on the pillows. And I do mean getting a seal, not keeping a seal. I could never get that to work properly. The only thing that helped was whitebeard's fix, as I discussed previously. I wish that I could combine both hybrids, because the pillows worked great on the Liberty, and the mouth cushion worked great on the Innomed.

I think what you're getting confused about is my use of the term "mouth dropping open." As I noted above with the Innomed Hybrid, I understand that a FFM should allow the mouth to open, but when I say that my mouth has been dropping open with the two FFMs I've used thus far, I mean that it's coming open as wide as it can without any extra effort on my part to open it further. Go ahead and let your mouth drop open right now. Fully relax all your jaw muscles. Don't force it though. That's what's been happening to me. There's a HUGE difference between a FFM that's designed to accommodate an open mouth and a FFM that's designed to accommodate a gaping-open mouth. The former exists, the latter does not. Since I've had experience with a mask (the Innomed Hybrid) with a chin support, I know that the chin support works well for me. Since my mouth gaping open at night caused so many issues with the Air, and I've had to go with a larger size in the Simplus (which comes with its own issues), I'm looking for anyone's suggestions on FFMs with chin support.

I hope that clears it up.