Help me understand individual breaths

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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avi123
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by avi123 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:17 pm

Setj wrote:Hi, OP back again.


Here is a typical flow curve when I am sleeping well:

Image

Here's a guide to waveform shapes posted by Mellabella in the other thread:

Image
Image

Now my waveform certainly does not look like #1 which is "THE" healthy waveform shape.

Is our goal with CPAP to achieve #1 waveform shape? Or are we just satisfied with low AHI?

Thanks for any help!
Comments,

Yes, the goal would be to find out that your waveform is shaped as #1. But it's not always possible. In my case the S9 Autoset's duty is to try to ascertain that the blood in my body is properly oxygenated without waking me up unnecessarily, while carrying out this duty. It does the following, as the poster Ojy (I think) wrote to me:

Image

However, the S9 can't do everything. For example, I might have a deviated septum in my nose which interferes with the flow of respiration. In such a case my S9 can't fix it but only tell me that my Flow Limitation is elevated. It does it by checking the shape of the respiration waves to see by how far are the shapes from perfect rounded tops. Here is an example of my Flow Limitation LEVEL at a certain time during my sleep:

Image

The S9 calculates the off roundness level of flatness of the respiration wave shape by using its patented formulas (Shape Factors):

Image

Since Resmed combines in the "Flow Limitation" both the UARS (Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome) and the RERAS ( Respiratory Effort Related Arousal Syndrome) Indexes, I can decide which treatment I should evaluate.

_________________
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments:  S9 Autoset machine; Ruby chinstrap under the mask straps; ResScan 5.6
see my recent set-up and Statistics:
http://i.imgur.com/TewT8G9.png
see my recent ResScan treatment results:
http://i.imgur.com/3oia0EY.png
http://i.imgur.com/QEjvlVY.png

mellabella
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Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by mellabella » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:37 pm

So I most definitely have UARS, where I had to be retitrated for waveform shape and RERAS and not AHI in order to reach a pressure that worked for me.

Here is what a 1-minute epoch of unquestionable inspiratory resistance looks like (for me, on my machine and sleepyhead)--it's the "molars" that start at 5:03:00:

[imgImage[/img]

Here are some "mittens" which may or may not be an issue (remember, I have a Bipap with Biflex, and I'm still trying to figure out what that means):

[imgImage][/img]

And here's what "pretty" waveforms look like for me. At higher pressures (but not too high, otherwise that creates its own distress), and better nights I get more of these:

[imgImage][/img]

One thing to remember is that some of your "ugly" periods may be (normal) REM breathing periods or even positional changes. If your breathing stays constant all night, you're probably not cycling through everything you should be.

I recommend using the "notes" feature, and "zombie" scale, in Sleepyhead, so you can try to correlate for yourself what makes a good vs. bad night, and whether waveform data is meaningful for you.

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ FX Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: UARS; pressure 15/19
Last edited by mellabella on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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avi123
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by avi123 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:18 pm

mellabella, if you have UARS then raising the XPAP pressure, most likely, would not treat it completely. Overall, an XPAP could help a little depending on what causes your UARS.

Clinical Features Associated With UARS

Daytime symptoms:
Excessive daytime sleepiness
Fatigue
Morning headaches
Myalgias
Difficulty concentrating
Sleep disturbances:
Frequent nocturnal awakenings
Difficulties initiating sleep
Insomnia
Bruxism
Restless leg syndrome
Unrefreshing sleep
Autonomic nervous system:
Hypotension
Orthostasis
Cold hands and feet
Functional somatic syndrome associations:
Depression
Anxiety
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Irritable bowel syndrome
Fibromyalgia
Polysomnographic abnormalities:
Increased RERAs
Increased nocturnal arousals
Increased CAP rate
Alpha intrusion during sleep
________________________________________
Treatment


[as of 2011]

The optimal treatment for patients with UARS is not currently known. Continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) has been quite useful in the treatment of sleep-disordered breathing and there are some notable positive results in CPAP treatment of UARS. In a study of 15 heavy snorers with clinical evidence of UARS, treatment with nasal CPAP was associated with decreases in observed nocturnal arousals on polysomnography and decreases in mean sleep latency times on multiple sleep latency testing (MSLT) after several nights of treatment.3,36 A follow-up study of 15 subjects (in the original description of UARS) with daytime sleepiness and fatigue and who had undergone a therapeutic trial of positive pressure therapy reported similar findings.3 After treatment with approximately a month of nasal CPAP, significant improvements were seen in mean sleep latency times on MSLT (5.3 minutes vs 13.5 minutes), Pes nadir pressure (–33.1 cm H2O vs –5.3 cm H2O), amount of slow-wave sleep (1.2% vs 9.7%), and EEG arousals (31.3 vs 7.9 events/hour of sleep). Along with an improvement in sleep latency times on MSLT, there were subjective reports of improved daytime symptoms. Lastly, in a study of 130 postmenopausal women with chronic insomnia and evidence of UARS (n=62) or normal breathing (n=68), treatment with either nasal turbinectomy or nasal CPAP was associated with improvements in subjective reports of sleep quality as measured with a visual analog scale as well as mean sleep latency times on polysomnography.19 Despite the growing body of evidence supporting the use of positive pressure therapy for UARS patients, it remains difficult to obtain therapy. In a follow-up study of more than 90 patients conducted 4 to 5 years after the initial diagnosis of UARS was made, none of the subjects were receiving CPAP treatment; the main rationale given was that their insurance provider declined to provide the necessary equipment.1 Formal follow-up clinical evaluations of these patients noted significant worsening in their sleep-related complaints, with increased reports of fatigue, insomnia, and depressive mood. More disturbingly, prescriptions for hypnotics, stimulants, and antidepressants increased more than fivefold.

Other interventions, such as surgery or oral appliances, have also been used with some success in the treatment of patients with UARS. Procedures such as uvulopalatopharyngoplasty, laser-assisted uvuloplasty (LAUP), septoplasty with turbinate reduction, genioglossus advancement, and radiofrequency ablation of the palate have all been described in the literature.37-40 A study of LAUP in nine patients with UARS who underwent uvulopalatopharyngoplasty (n=2), multilevel pharyngeal surgery (n=1), or LAUP (n=6) reported improvements in subjective daytime sleepiness as measured with Epworth Sleepiness Scale scores.37 In the two patients for whom postoperative polysomnographic data was available, significant improvements in Pes nadir pressures were seen. But patients had several interventions and it is difficult to assess which one was successful. A study of 14 patients with UARS who underwent radiofrequency ablation of the palate also reported improvement in subjective sleepiness, with concurrent improvements in Pes nadir levels and reports of snoring.40 However, prior reviews of the available literature have noted that many of the studies evaluated small numbers of patients, consisted of uncontrolled case reports or series without clear characterization of the subjects enrolled, and had no consistent end points for an adequate evaluation of efficacy.39 Further investigation is required to determine the specific role for surgical intervention in these patients. Other authors have also reported successful treatment of UARS with use of oral appliances, although these studies suffer from the same limitations as the surgical literature.41 In children, orthodontic approaches, such as maxillary distraction or use of expanders, have also shown promising results.42


Conclusion

Although UARS has a symptomatology close to the one seen in patients with OSAS, there are distinct clinical differences between the two syndromes. In clinical studies, it is seen more in younger, slim subjects and in premenopausal women; it is more commonly associated with an increase in vagal tone during sleep than with sympathetic hyperactivity (as seen in association with apnea and hypopnea and oxygen desaturation).21 Can individuals with UARS become patients with OSAS? Guilleminault and colleagues1 suggested that weight increase (with development of a chest-bellow problem related to abdominal obesity) and the association of the supine position and sleep (leading to a restrictive impairment and secondary oxygen saturation drop and sympathetic hyperactivity) will lead to passage from one presentation to another with different complications; but more data are needed from additional systematic, longitudinal studies.1 UARS is underdiagnosed owing to unfamiliarity with the syndrome and the lack of polysomnographic criteria for either hypopneas or apneas that are associated with other types of sleep-disordered breathing. The advent of use of an esophageal catheter for esophageal pressure measurement (Pes) has allowed clinicians to more clearly identify patients with UARS. Although Pes measurement is the most sensitive method available to detect the abnormal respiratory events in UARS, it has not been used widely for several reasons, including lack of clinician experience and patient reports of discomfort. Usage of the nasal cannula pressure transducer allows recognition of flow limitation.43 But guidelines on how to tabulate the amount of flow limitation during total sleep time are lacking. Patients with UARS have significant impairment in their daytime functioning, with reports of sleepiness, fatigue, and sleep disruption. A follow-up study of these patients has shown that they often go untreated and experience progressive worsening of their symptoms. Among those patients who have been treated, typically with CPAP therapy, many have experienced symptomatic improvement. The current fund of knowledge regarding UARS has been growing, and we are beginning to understand the underlying pathophysiology.
________________________________________

_________________
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments:  S9 Autoset machine; Ruby chinstrap under the mask straps; ResScan 5.6
see my recent set-up and Statistics:
http://i.imgur.com/TewT8G9.png
see my recent ResScan treatment results:
http://i.imgur.com/3oia0EY.png
http://i.imgur.com/QEjvlVY.png

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Sludge
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Sludge » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:55 am

mellabella wrote:So I most definitely have UARS, where I had to be retitrated for waveform shape and RERAS and not AHI in order to reach a pressure that worked for me.

Here is what a 1-minute epoch of unquestionable inspiratory resistance looks like (for me, on my machine and sleepyhead)--it's the "molars":
Image

Here are some "mittens" which may or may not be an issue (remember, I have a Bipap with Biflex, and I'm still trying to figure out what that means):
Image

And here's what "pretty" waveforms look like for me. At higher pressures (but not too high, otherwise that creates its own distress), and better nights I get more of these:
Image

One thing to remember is that some of your "ugly" periods may be (normal) REM breathing periods or even positional changes. If your breathing stays constant all night, you're probably not cycling through everything you should be.

I recommend using the "notes" feature, and "zombie" scale, in Sleepyhead, so you can try to correlate for yourself what makes a good vs. bad night, and whether waveform data is meaningful for you.
Cannot see your images as posted. Editing links:


Image

Image

Image
You Kids Have Fun!!

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Sludge
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Sludge » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:16 am

Setj wrote:BTW, I have had a benign heart arrhythmia since I was a teenager. The company gave us stress tests when we turned 50 (65 now) and the heart doc said the arrhythmia was benign and "nothing to worry about".
What exactly is the "arrhythmia"? Or is it a "murmur"?
You Kids Have Fun!!

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Setj
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Setj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:44 am

Sludge wrote:
Setj wrote:BTW, I have had a benign heart arrhythmia since I was a teenager. The company gave us stress tests when we turned 50 (65 now) and the heart doc said the arrhythmia was benign and "nothing to worry about".
What exactly is the "arrhythmia"? Or is it a "murmur"?
Sorry, I don't know exactly. Only that the heart doctor doing the stress test said it was a benign arrhythmia, "nothing to worry about".

It was usually present after I had done some lengthy exercise and/or was very fatigued. Some people described it as a "skipped" heart beat. To me it felt like the heart would "jump" on one beat - meaning not skip a beat, but have one beat strong enough to be felt. It occurred a few times per hour at its worst. Sometime it would cause one small cough - maybe this is significant for the diagnosis?

But it seems strange that I have not felt it once since beginning CPAP. During that time I done heavy work with weights in the gym numerous times and have been involved in some high intensity cardio. Usually at some point, this would have tripped off the arrhythmia. But not now. I guess my sleep is so much better that the exercise is not leaving me as fatigued before.

Thanks.
Seth

(I made a typo when I registered the user name. :oops: )

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Setj
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Setj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:45 am

Here is something I found while looking at my waveforms last night.

Image

I get a few apneas, 4 to 8, that are labeled "central" each night. This is one of them. The "sawtooth" portion of the line is what? Seems strange and maybe it is a clue to the shorter "sawtooths" on my usual waveforms.

All of the centrals on my chart have waveforms that look like that.

Thanks.
Seth

(I made a typo when I registered the user name. :oops: )

mellabella
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by mellabella » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:52 am

Sludge wrote:
mellabella wrote:So I most definitely have UARS, where I had to be retitrated for waveform shape and RERAS and not AHI in order to reach a pressure that worked for me.

Here is what a 1-minute epoch of unquestionable inspiratory resistance looks like (for me, on my machine and sleepyhead)--it's the "molars":
Image

Here are some "mittens" which may or may not be an issue (remember, I have a Bipap with Biflex, and I'm still trying to figure out what that means):
Image

And here's what "pretty" waveforms look like for me. At higher pressures (but not too high, otherwise that creates its own distress), and better nights I get more of these:
Image

One thing to remember is that some of your "ugly" periods may be (normal) REM breathing periods or even positional changes. If your breathing stays constant all night, you're probably not cycling through everything you should be.

I recommend using the "notes" feature, and "zombie" scale, in Sleepyhead, so you can try to correlate for yourself what makes a good vs. bad night, and whether waveform data is meaningful for you.
Cannot see your images as posted. Editing links:
Thanks so much! I pulled the wrong links from Photobucket and just caught it and edited this morning.

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ FX Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: UARS; pressure 15/19

User avatar
Sludge
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Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Sludge » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:54 am

Setj wrote:Here is something I found while looking at my waveforms last night.

Image

I get a few apneas, 4 to 8, that are labeled "central" each night. This is one of them. The "sawtooth" portion of the line is what? Seems strange and maybe it is a clue to the shorter "sawtooths" on my usual waveforms.

All of the centrals on my chart have waveforms that look like that.

Thanks.
That's "FOT".
You Kids Have Fun!!

mellabella
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by mellabella » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:57 am

avi123 wrote:mellabella, if you have UARS then raising the XPAP pressure, most likely, would not treat it completely. Overall, an XPAP could help a little depending on what causes your UARS.
_
Thanks for posting that summary of UARS for anyone new--it's great information to have. You're right about how any xPAP isn't a full fix, but I found a tremendous difference between straight CPAP at 7 (my initial titration, before I was properly diagnosed and titrated as having UARS!), and BiPap Auto at 12-17 (most nights) and a pressure support of 4-6. It's still very much a work in progress. I've also benefited from medication trials that work towards consolidating deeper sleep stages, and Provigil in the morning, but man, the difference between CPAP at 7 and BiPap at 12/17 is like night and day--even though my Apnea-Hypopnea Index is the same for both.

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ FX Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: UARS; pressure 15/19

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Setj
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Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Setj » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:23 am

Sludge wrote: That's "FOT".
That stumped me until I googled this explanation on this forum.
Forced Oscillation Technique. It's how the data capable S9s attempt to detect central apnea. It's a rapid series of small puffs of air. The machine measures the airflow changes to see if the air is reaching your lungs or not. (Simplified version)
So is it safe to assume the sawtooth in my usual waveform is FOT?

Image

I am beginning to think this therapy is about optimized for me and it is time to move on to other things. I would continue to check the display every morning. I would only do a data download if the numbers on the display looked bad or if I felt bad.
Seth

(I made a typo when I registered the user name. :oops: )

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avi123
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by avi123 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:41 pm

The FOT is at a frequency of 4 Hz with an amplitude of 1 cm H2O, and have nothing to do with the shape or frequency of the respiration waves. It is superimposed over the air flow, at the right time, to check if the airway is open or closed. The XPAP looks for bounce- back of these oscillations to verify that the airway is indeed closed. You can see its uses here in this important report:

Central Sleep Apnea Detection and the Enhanced AutoSet Algorithm

By: J P Armitstead, PhD; G N Richards, MB ChB; A Wimms, BSc; A V Benjafield, PhD
Applied Research and ResMed Science Center, ResMed Ltd, Sydney, Australia

http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... -paper.pdf

Respiration frequency is around 15/Min = 0.25 Hz so the FOT's frequency is about 16 times faster.

_________________
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments:  S9 Autoset machine; Ruby chinstrap under the mask straps; ResScan 5.6
see my recent set-up and Statistics:
http://i.imgur.com/TewT8G9.png
see my recent ResScan treatment results:
http://i.imgur.com/3oia0EY.png
http://i.imgur.com/QEjvlVY.png

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Lazer1234
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Location: Sweden

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Lazer1234 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:57 pm

Setj wrote:
Sludge wrote: That's "FOT".
That stumped me until I googled this explanation on this forum.
Forced Oscillation Technique. It's how the data capable S9s attempt to detect central apnea. It's a rapid series of small puffs of air. The machine measures the airflow changes to see if the air is reaching your lungs or not. (Simplified version)
So is it safe to assume the sawtooth in my usual waveform is FOT?

Image

I am beginning to think this therapy is about optimized for me and it is time to move on to other things. I would continue to check the display every morning. I would only do a data download if the numbers on the display looked bad or if I felt bad.
No, not that! FOT begins after 4 seconds.

_________________
Mask: TAP PAP Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Improved Stability Mouthpiece
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: APAP 7,8 - 20 EPR 3 No Ramp ResScan 5.1 SleepyHead 0.9.8.1
Everything I write I translate through Google Translate.
Hope you have patience with that, sometimes it can get a little crazy.
/Lazer1234

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Sludge
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Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by Sludge » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:22 am

Setj wrote:So is it safe to assume the sawtooth in my usual waveform is FOT?
No, the sawtooth pattern is 2Hz while FOT is 4Hz and kicks in at a specific time during an apnea.

Normally, now would be a good time to talk about "filters" (and why some people's waveforms appear perfectly smooth, while others, like yours, have a lot of extrawavolinity), but since
Setj wrote:I am beginning to think this therapy is about optimized for me and it is time to move on to other things.
I'll just say Good Luck, Adios, MTFBWY, etc.
You Kids Have Fun!!

mellabella
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Help me understand individual breaths

Post by mellabella » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:11 am

Sludge wrote:
Setj wrote:So is it safe to assume the sawtooth in my usual waveform is FOT?
No, the sawtooth pattern is 2Hz while FOT is 4Hz and kicks in at a specific time during an apnea.

Normally, now would be a good time to talk about "filters" (and why some people's waveforms appear perfectly smooth, while others, like yours, have a lot of extrawavolinity), but since
Setj wrote:I am beginning to think this therapy is about optimized for me and it is time to move on to other things.
I'll just say Good Luck, Adios, MTFBWY, etc.
Um, I'd love to hear, if you have time (since I'm having similar artifacts) and future archive browsers might love you for it too.

_________________
Mask: Mirage™ FX Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: UARS; pressure 15/19