Do Heated Humidifiers produce additional (usable) oxygen?

[Offerocker]

I recently had a conversation with someone while complaining that my waterbed continually needing to be 'burped' due to those drated pools of 'bubbles'. I had been previously been told that the oxygen molecules were just having a meeting. So I wondered, if there's a 'breakdown', where are all of the Hydrogen molecules going???? (don't respond to that part). I was then asked if my waterbed was heated. Yes, it is. Then I was informed that heated water produces oxygen. Well, that explanation made sense!

Fast forward to applying same principle to Heated humidifiers relative to CPAP equipment. I would guess that the humidifier heats the same amount of water to a higher temperature, if that is a factor
.
Does this 'produced' oxygen actually get added to the flow, carried through the hose, and up the ol' nose? I realize it is miniscule, but still curious.
Inquiring mind wants to know.

Thanks to you who have the answer.

[dsm]

I don't think (seriously) that heating water in a H/H will split it into Oxy & Hyd.

Electrolysis can do this and that might be possible in a defective H/H.

Just an educated guess

DSM

[Guest]

the hydrogen bomb you are creating?

who you going to bomb with it?

or are you going to save it and wait for a hydrogen run automobile?

[Sleepless in St. Louis]

Not really possible. Air can temporarily get mixed up with water (ever wonder why water running over rocks looks white? It's because air has been churned up with the the water.) It takes much more energy than the humidifier produces, and other factors, to separate hydrogen from oxygen chemically. If making hydrogen was that easy, we'd probably all be running it in our cars by now as a fuel replacement for gasoline. You would not want your HH to produce Hydrogen even if it could. Hydrogen, in the pressence of oxygen, goes BOOM!!!

Tim

[Ellen]

If anyone can answer this for me - I'd love it - I'm just a simple country girl
reading her pulse/ox -

I have a lung problem so am on 5L supplemental oxygen - only on CPAP since 4/4/06 WITH supplemental 02 - live at 6800 feet - takes 5L 02 to get 02 at bedtime to 97% -

Starting getting nasal congestion at bedtime so turned humidifier to 3 - felt extremely short of breath so got finger pulse ox to check. I could turn machine off and with no 02 pull just 90% on pulse ox (normal for me without supplemental 02_) but when I turned machine on, the pulse ox dropped within 1 minute to below 85% - when turned humidifier to 1, I can breathe comfortably and pulse ox reads back to 97%.

My country girl theory is that water is H20 (2 Hydrogen Atoms to 1 Oxygen Atom) so when oxygen is heavier with water, I believe the extra hydrogen atoms displace some of the oxygen atoms, making humid air less dense in oxygen.

Husband and I professionally race top fuel motors for years and I am very familiar with carburation as it applies to motors (altitude = less oxygen; cold air = compressed/more oxygen) but I haven't tried to back up my personal theory on humidified air - just going by what my own body's carburators (lungs) are telling me.

Someone out there please tell me I'm "plumb country dumb" and explain this phenomenon to me.............

I've put this on the forum before and got no takers................DSM - you sound like an engineer........can you explain this to me????

Ellen

[Davey]

Ellen,

Forget about chemistry and atoms as no molecules are being broken down. You are correct in that take a volume of room air and add moisture in a controlled environment (same temperature, same air pressure) and the moisture will displace some of the air (thereby some of the oxygen in the air). A healthy individual would just breathe very slightly faster/deeper to get more air and oxygen.

I can't be sure what is happening in your case and there are so many variables (uncontrolled enviroment). Hopefully a respiratory specialist will chime in.

Davey

[dsm]

Ellen,

Thanks for the challenge

- I'll have a go at breaking it down to the core issue by analysing your exact statements

If I understand correctly the sequence is ...

1) In bed with xpap on, H/H on and set to 3, receiving 5 lpm supplemental o, feeling congested & can't breath well

2) Turned off machine, (will make assumption you removed mask), registered SpO2 of 90 which is normal for you when breathing plain air

3) Turned machine on again, (assuming still at previous settings & H/H turned on), SpO2 drops to 85 within 1 minute

4) Turned H/H from 3 to 1 while still on then breathing improves and SpO2 goes to 97

Common assumption is that the 5 lpm O was being introduced all the time (how is the O being injected into the air flow ?)

And, your point is that in this setup changing the H/H from 3 to 1 changes your SpO2 from 85 to 97 ?

Your theory is that the higher the moisture content of the air, the more the oxygen gets displaced ?

Has this captured the situation ?

Cheers

DSM

PS, where do you believe the 5 lpm of O is going if not into your lungs ?

[SuxBeingU]

BELOW 85%

that scary low I was at 88% when my body just about gave up and quit working.

Noob here been on Cpap for almost a month also using a ox concentrator at 2L gone from 88 to 93 in a month hopefully of the ox soon now that I am not choking myself all night and actually getting some sleep.

curious to see what you guys find out, just ordered a passover humidifier I like cold.

Good Luck

[Ellen]

DSM - I was not congested that night, but had turned the humidifier up to 3 to prevent congestion.

02 connects at base of mask hose with machine hose below that.

Activa Nasal Mask - with mouth closed.

Sitting on side of bed - not laying down.

What supplemental oxygen I don't breathe goes out exhaust ports

So are you thinking CO2 buildup in mask?

Ellen

[Ellen]

SuxBeingU - Please remember I live at 6800 feet and good here is 96/97.
My oxygen level with nocturnal oximetry goes down to 50% (obviously during apneic episodes) - my Dr told me he has never seen a worse test - thus CPAP on top of supplemental 02.

I'm sure a bulk of 5L 02 goes out "exhaust ports" so I doubt I am breathing a full 5L, which you don't with an oxygen mask on either. Remember the oxygen is connected in right above the hose the pressurized air is delivered from, so now you have the pressurized air pushing the oxygen into the mask - and probably a good % of it right back out the mask.

And DSM, I don't think I would have thought to take off mask when checking oxygen level when I raised the humidity so CO2 would make sense -

What started the whole thing was that I turned humidifier up to 3 before masking - HOPING MORE HUMIDITY WOULD PREVENT CONGESTION - but when masked up and started breathing, my lungs felt very HEAVY - like when I have advanced pneumonia with lots of fluid in lungs - but I felt like this within minutes of breathing at 3 - also the air felt "too heavy to breathe".

Reckon I imagined all this??

Ellen

[Handgunner45]

Ellen,

My views on this. When you inhale, you breathe in a set volume. Normal air contains about 21% O2 by volume. When you add humidity (H2O) to the air, the H2O molecules displace a portion of the air. You still breathe the same volume but now the volume of air is reduced by the volume of the humidity that is in it and thus the total amount of O2 is reduced. What you breath in is still 21% O2, but the humidity has reduced the net intake of O2. In your case with the 5L O2 the actual amount of O2 in the air is greater than 21% but the same ratios would apply. If you add humidity then the volume on air inhaled is reduced. Yes, H2O is 1/3 oxygen, however this oxygen is unusable to the human body, even if it is heated. If you could use this oxygen you would be exhaling pure hydrogen.

I believe that this is correct. I know my Dad, on 3-5L O2 full time, has a lot easier time breathing when the humidity in the air is much lower. Summers in Nebraska tend to be very humid and he is much less comfortable than in the winter when it is less humid.

[snork1]

well, if we could separate out the oxygen molecules, which would also be de facto separating the Hydrogen molecules, with a simple CPAP humidifier heater, we could be making some scientists feel pretty foolish for being so stuck on how to do this process with low energy input for hydrogen fuel cell cars. In fact all the CPAPers could start up a home business being fuel stations for Fuel Cell cars.....

My GUESS is that the humdity injected somehow causes your lungs to more effectively absorb the oxygen from the air.

I notice when I use my heat humdifier CPAP my pulse ox numbers can SOMETIMES go a full percentage or two higher than my best fully awake non-CPAP numbers.

[Handgunner45]

snork1

Just curious, have you compared your numbers with vs without humidifier? How do they compare?

[dllfo]

Hi Ellen,
First, I am not an engineer, like you, I find my body doing strange things and it makes me more comfortable with myself when I can understand what is happening.

Have you ever went into some of the military websites, or anything to do with
prolonged flight. Not for passengers, but the effects on the crews.

If you have a "flight surgeon" close by, call them. When we flew KC-135s in
the daytime our cabin pressure was set at 8,000ft MSL--at night--5,000 ft MSL. Your home is right in that range, therefore a good flight surgeon might be able to give you some answers.

In fact, I may know someone in AF life support who can get you some info.
They are in Europe now, but emails are faster than a speeding tax bill in
congress...so I will email him.

There are some smart people on this forum, so don't give up. If we cannot
help you, we might know who could.

Because of the quantity you use, do you have liquid oxygen for a source or
bottled oxygen?

I will PM you when I hear from the AF Life Support people.

[brasshopper]

Well, there is an interesting chart on Wikipedia - air that is saturated with water vapor at room temperature is less than 3% h20 - that is what I sort of remembered but I wanted to look it up to be sure. See humidity article in wikipedia for the chart. This reduces the percentage of O2 from 21% to (wait for it) 20.37% - in other words, it changes the percentage by .6 % or so. This seems less than highly significant.

Now, we can compare this to how much change a 5 lpm flow into the mask would make. Most CPAPs flat out top out at 30-35 LPM - above that they can't hold pressure at all. But the typical resting human breathes about seven liters per minute per encyclopedia brittanica, and less than that according to wikipedia.

Assuming that you were breathing at the maximum capacity of the CPAP, and that capacity was 30 LPM, your total gas volume would be 35 liters with the added O2. Thus, you would have 30 liters of 20% O2 plus 5 liters of 100% O2. If I've done the math correctly, your minimum O2 percentage would be 31%, but the actual amount of O2 you are likely to be breathing is going to be significantly higher than that - if you are breathing 7 LPM, and 5 liters of that is coming from the O2 bottle, your O2 percentage is about 77%.

(I'm assuming that your O2 is delivered by tank or in a liquid state in a Dewar. If you have a device that centrifuges air to enrich the O2, it won't be delivering 100% O2, so the percentage O2 output would have to be known. Generally, however, those separators will deliver up to 95% O2 with a low of 90% O2 so the numbers won't be that different. Want to open an oxygen bar? Used separators cost a couple hundred bucks on eBay.)

The point I'm trying to make is that the added O2 makes large changes to the amount of O2 in your breathing gas. Conversely, shifting from no humidity to high humidity only makes a tiny change to the amount of O2 in your breathing gas.

Hmmm...OK, other points: No way that any humidifier can break down any significant amount of water into the constituent 2H2+O2. I might be wrong but I think, you need Direct Current to do that, but in any case a minor amount of heat just won't do it. As to why bubbles form in a waterbed, it is probably the air coming out of solution, but there is more chance that air will diffuse through the vinyl membrane into the water and then separate. This would happen very slowly, of course, but the bubbles are not that big. There is also some chance that the fill valve will leak air in while not leaking water out.

Another point: Adding water to air makes it lighter not heavier. Why? Well, at a certain pressure, all gas takes up the same volume per molecule of gas. There is something called Avogadro's Law which says that essentially 6.02x10e23 molecules of any mixed gas takes 22.4 liters and weighs the number of grams that matches the atomic weight. So, what is in air? Ellen thought about it and thought that the gas was heavier, but she forgot that air does not contain single oxygen atoms and nitrogen atoms. They are all combined into N2 and O2.

So air contains about 21% O2 at a weight of 32. Most of the rest is N2 with a weight of 28. H2O weighs about 18 total - less than either N2 or O2. When you put water in, you displace the same number of molecules of the other gases. So the more water, the lighter the air mix.

I'm guessing at this point, but I think humidity changes are more likely to make your lungs work more or less well because of dryness and surfactant stickiness and things like that which I really don't understand. I don't think you managed anything - what I think is that the effect you described is that your lungs are too wet and uncomfortable.

Of course, if you left a nasal mask on with your machine off and you were breathing into the hose, well, the O2 levels would go down real quick. I've used an O2 sensor to measure my exhalation. The percentage O2 was about 10% at the end of a long exhalation - and breathing that in would probably have resulted in hypoxia.

My new CPAP and the software and reader are scheduled to arrive on Monday. I'm hoping that this will make a difference - I feel like getting the prescription and accurate test description out of the doctor was like pulling teeth.