battery power?

[avi123]

Hey AVI! Did you know that more people are injured every day by hydric acid than by battery acid in a year???

Comment,

Thanks for the data. At least you backed it up with a sort of a reliable source and not like that loose canon named ArchAngel, pretending to be another Linus Carl Pauling.


I myself plan to do the following in the case of a power outage:

During the first night I'll be using the Chinstrap only without the XPAP. I know it that I can take daytime naps like that and my tongue is held by my lower jaw preventing it from falling backwards into my throat and causing obstructive apneas.

I have a single home with a two car garage (almost detached but not physically so). The distance from a car's battery to my XPAP is 75'. If I bring a car closer to the house main door then the distance is 50'. If I move to the bed room closer to the main door then the distance would drop to 15'. I 'll use the battery in the car as is (remove the hot cable connector) or thru the cigarette lighter. The inverter will be near the battery. Then I'll run a 110 volt AC extension cord from the inverter to my XPAP in my bedroom. I think that I could repeat it for 3 to 4 nights. Driving the car during the daytime will recharge the battery.

If the outage would look like that from hurricane Sandy (a week or longer) , then I plan to use a small generator 800 to 1200 watts, placed near or in the garage with both cars parked outside in the driveway, and the Garage door fully open. Another option is to use a 4" to 6" dia duct to direct the exhaust of the gasoline or diesel engine of the generator to the outside of the garage, toward the street, via a window or hole in the garage wall or door.

Any thoughts?

[archangle]

If the outage would look like that from hurricane Sandy (a week long) , then I plan to use a small generator 800 to 1200 watts, placed near or in the garage with both cars parked outside in the driveway, and the Garage door fully open.

You still run the risk of dying from carbon monoxide poisoning if you run a generator in the garage, even with the door open.

[BudSky]

Anything with a cranking amp rating is a staring battery not made for deep cycle use.

Not necessarily. There are many " dual purpose" batteries on the market designed to serve starting and deep cycle needs. Pretty common in the marine world now.

But certainly a starting only type battery does not fare well under deep cycle use.

[BudSky]

I 'll use the battery in the car as is (remove the hot cable connector) or thru the cigarette lighter. The inverter will be near the battery. Then I'll run a 110 volt AC extension cord from the inverter to my XPAP in my bedroom. I think that I could repeat it for 3 to 4 nights. Driving the car during the daytime will recharge the battery.

Any thoughts?

The car battery would work in a pinch but keep in mind many late model cars don't really like having their batteries disconnected or run dead. Powertrain control systems can take literally many miles of driving to "re-learn" engine parameters to optimize fuel efficiency and also transmission shifting strategies. Some even recommend letting the vehicle idle for a few minutes after a power loss then driving a prescribed cycle to optimize the parameters quickly. You may notice poor running and odd quirks while the powertrain controls establish a new baseline.
Just something to think about.

One other thing- it is generally preferred to remove the negative side cable rather than the "hot" side.

[archangle]

Anything with a cranking amp rating is a staring battery not made for deep cycle use.

Not necessarily. There are many " dual purpose" batteries on the market designed to serve starting and deep cycle needs. Pretty common in the marine world now.

But certainly a starting only type battery does not fare well under deep cycle use.

"Dual purpose" marine batteries are a compromise between deep cycle and starting batteries. You trade starting current for lifetime in deep cycle use. Dual purpose batteries have a less spongy plate than starting, but are still more "fragile" than a true deep cycle.

You can use any type for CPAP use, but always chose the deep cycle unless you have some other reason such as cost or availability. Dual purpose is the second choice, with starting being third.

[JohnBFisher]

For other readers that are reading this post, please understand that avi123 does NOT represent either current technology, nor the general consensus. It is possible to build a deep cycle battery system that is safe to have indoors. Can problems occur? Certainly. But alternative suggestions are MUCH less safe than the design I put together and offered freely:

viewtopic.php?p=449334

I put a LOT of thought and engineering into that post. It is designed to avoid as many problems as possible. I recommend that the user selects a SEALED, Top-of-the-Line deep cycle battery. I recommend a battery box be used to isolate the battery from the surrounding environment. I recommend that battery connectors and post covers be used so that no one needs to every connect a jumper type cable to the battery. I recommend that a connector be used to connect to the battery, such that the battery box top never needs to be opened. I recommend that the battery box be closed via a strap. I recommend that a polarized connection system be used to avoid possible improper power connections. I recommend that a Top-of-the-Line battery tender be used to keep the battery in good working order - to minimize problems with venting.

There is a *LOT* of engineering in that post that most people do not realize is there. This is not just my speculation on this. I was a third tier engineer, who helped companies around the world analyze their computer systems. This included analysis of their backup power systems, including their battery backup systems.

The battery backup design that I offer to the forum is a safe approach. It makes the setup as safe as possible. So much so, that it makes it much safer than many other choices that I've seen.

For example, it is certainly much safer and cheaper than the Lithium Ion batteries. While they are much smaller and lighter than a sealed deep cycle battery, they tend to periodically have "Thermal Events" as Chevrolet used to like to describe occasional fires they experienced while building prototypes of the Volt.

It is also safer than taking a computer UPS (battery backup system) and modifying it for a xPAP system. Those were never designed for this type of deep discharge. They are often not tended by the same quality battery tending. And their integrated inverter tends to be only modified square wave. This as we know can cause problems with some xPAP devices.

The design I have can readily drive a xPAP device that can accept 12 vdc. I know. I use that on my Phillips Respironics System One BiPAP AutoSV Advanced unit.

So, in spite of how often avi123 states it, deep cycle batteries can be a safe system to use. Just use some normal precautions to help eliminate problems. Again, that is why I offered my Battery Backup Design.

[Guest]

if you are not handy with a screw driver or a flashlight there is something you can buy off the shelf that will work
just search for a post titled "another battery option"
it will cost a lot less too

[squid13]

I built mine to John's specifications in his post and have never had a problem with it. I've used it a couple of times when we lost power.

[JohnBFisher]

if you are not handy with a screw driver or a flashlight there is something you can buy off the shelf that will work
just search for a post titled "another battery option"
it will cost a lot less too

Hey, take the design and parts (including the battery) to your local auto mechanic. There's at most a couple hours of work in that job. They should be able to make it for a reasonable price.

[archangle]

I recommend that the user selects a SEALED, Top-of-the-Line deep cycle battery.

A sealed battery is good, but considerably more expensive. Apart from the cost, it's a better choice on that basis alone.

The main safety advantage to a sealed battery is that it's less likely to spill if turned over or if you crack the case.

In very rare cases, either type of battery can vent fumes or liquid. This is unlikely to be a problem if you use the proper charger and don't short the battery out.

[nanwilson]

if you are not handy with a screw driver or a flashlight there is something you can buy off the shelf that will work
just search for a post titled "another battery option"
it will cost a lot less too

Hey, take the design and parts (including the battery) to your local auto mechanic. There's at most a couple hours of work in that job. They should be able to make it for a reasonable price.

Me too...what John did. I took a copy of his design and a copy of the email I got from F&P explaining what my machine needed, to my local auto parts place, and they gave me exactly what I required. I have used the set up frequently while in my motorhome and during power outages..................If i can get it done, anybody can ......as I'm just a dumb old lady
Cheers
Nan

[Guest]

if you are not handy with a screw driver or a flashlight there is something you can buy off the shelf that will work
just search for a post titled "another battery option"
it will cost a lot less too

Hey, take the design and parts (including the battery) to your local auto mechanic. There's at most a couple hours of work in that job. They should be able to make it for a reasonable price.

Me too...what John did. I took a copy of his design and a copy of the email I got from F&P explaining what my machine needed, to my local auto parts place, and they gave me exactly what I required. I have used the set up frequently while in my motorhome and during power outages..................If i can get it done, anybody can ......as I'm just a dumb old lady
Cheers
Nan

so who here thinks that ordering all the stuff is easier than buying something plug n play off the shelf?
and then also believes that taking all these parts to someone you have to pay will in fact cost you less?
if you are bringing electrical parts to an auto mechanic to assemble
you just might have more than osa

next you should bring the starter motor for your car to an electrician to replace
don't electricians charge less than $90/hr?

[nanwilson]

Guest/spammer
...you seem to be having fun just refuting what other folks say......if you are an "expert" why don't you register and let us know. When a "Guest" keeps coming back and jabbing at others post, we tend to believe the "spammer" attitude.

[JohnBFisher]

... so who here thinks that ordering all the stuff is easier than buying something plug n play off the shelf? ...

Guest, you know, somehow I suspect that my very non-anonymous post carries a lot more weight with others on this forum than your anonymous snarky question. But to address your specific point:

If there was an off the shelf unit that would really do the job and was designed to work like in this environment and was a safe design, then I'ld be happy to buy it. The one that does not use Lithium Ion technology is much more expensive:

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/respir ... e-kit.html

And sadly it is not compatible with my unit.

Glad you're anonymously posting ... You gain SO MUCH credibility with the forum for being so open and forthright.

[Guest]

Guest/spammer
...you seem to be having fun just refuting what other folks say......if you are an "expert" why don't you register and let us know. When a "Guest" keeps coming back and jabbing at others post, we tend to believe the "spammer" attitude.

not an expert and not refuting anything anyone has said
only mentioning there is another option
why is that so offensive?

on to the truth

Glad you're anonymously posting ... You gain SO MUCH credibility with the forum for being so open and forthright.

why are you offended about someone who is willing to offer another option to what you are offering? and is willing to do it without getting any credit for it?
insecure?
no one has attacked your design
no one has mentioned it is not a smart person who would use their real name on any internet forum

perhaps you have not understood the very many posters on this forum who have repeatedly said over & over again their eyes glaze over and they simply do not understand the instructions written yet you continue to tell them how easy it is
then someone comes along with something that is easier and cost less and you can only knock they chose not to be associated with avi, jbf, etc

normally when someone picks on the name rather than the message it means they fear the message but have nothing to challenge the message so they attack the name thereby directing attention away from the feared message "another battery option"

a jump starter battery is off the shelf, will do the job, and cost less
it comes with all the right parts
the power outlets, ac & dc, the charger, the regulator, even usb outlets to charge phones etc.
all assembled and with a carry handle to use in other places in the home or camping
all user will need is a right power cord to fit their machine
any machine that will work work off dc and others that will work off of converted ac power but for a shorter time

to my way of think it is a much easier approach for those who dont think they can build their own or simply dont have the time or the desire

so talk about how bad the jump starter is to use instead of whether the messenger is a registered lunatic or not
is this how you all would treat a guest in your home?

when it comes to backup power there is post called "another battery option" which like it or not does have a lot of useful information