OT: No R.E.M Sleep (help)

[SleepingBearDoNtWake]

Hi Everyone,

It's been a while since I have been on. My Apap therapy is going great, but I am still so tired. As I believe I have mentioned in previous posts, I have had my B vitamins and Iron, Vit D and Testosterone tested. The Vit D and the Testosterone were off, so I have started on treatment hoping for some energey, but it is a no go.
So I went to see an endocranologist, and she wanted to start me on Testosterone injections, but told me I needed to have a Head MRI. I got called back that day to find out that I have a brain tumor on my pituitary glad, which is one explaination that my testosterone is low and a reason I may be other hormones out of wack, but that is going to take several weeks to have that test down.
In the mean time I had to get my medical records to bring to some new doctors and I wanted to look at them first. So I picked them up and every thing was good, except on my sleep study it said I didn't enter into R.E.M Sleep, but, it does specify if that was before, after or both.
Now I understand REM sleep is important so I have an appointment in 3 weeks with my ENT Doc to set up another sleep study.
So I have some questions that maybe be able to help me with.
1. If my REM sleep is not being entered into, are there any treatments, medications, etc that might help me get into R.E.M\
2. On a rare occasion I have a dream, I always thought that ment you where in R.E.M, but I have hear that that might not be true, does anyone know?
3. I don't want to do another in house sleep study, do you think they might be able to do an at home one sense we are just doing the brainwaes? Please tell me yes, and make me happy?
4. There is a device that people on this board use, is it the zeo, the head band that records some sleep info. Does anyone know if that records R.E.M. sleep, I know it is a lot to ask from a machine but I can hope can''t
5. Has Zeo been of a real help with sleep problems and getting them to feel better by following there program, or is it just a very simple device that might be use some and not to others.
6 If so, wwould you recommend this device to get better sleep.


Thank you all,

Mike

[Jim-Bob]

Hi Everyone,

1. If my REM sleep is not being entered into, are there any treatments, medications, etc that might help me get into R.E.M\
2. On a rare occasion I have a dream, I always thought that ment you where in R.E.M, but I have hear that that might not be true, does anyone know?
3. I don't want to do another in house sleep study, do you think they might be able to do an at home one sense we are just doing the brainwaes? Please tell me yes, and make me happy?
4. There is a device that people on this board use, is it the zeo, the head band that records some sleep info. Does anyone know if that records R.E.M. sleep, I know it is a lot to ask from a machine but I can hope can''t
5. Has Zeo been of a real help with sleep problems and getting them to feel better by following there program, or is it just a very simple device that might be use some and not to others.
6 If so, wwould you recommend this device to get better sleep.

Thank you all,
Mike

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.
2. Some very rudimentary dreaming can happen outside of R.E.M., but if you have a dream with any real narrative to it, characters, situations, then you are in R.E.M.
3. Can't say on that.
4. Yes, Zeo does report R.E.M. sleep. It records wake, light sleep, deep sleep, and R.E.M. I have one and it works great. I love mine.

[archangle]

Even for people who "REM" normally, it's not uncommon to NOT REM in the lab. I think it's noted in the PSG report mostly to indicate that the test didn't get to take any measurements during REM. Some people have apnea only during REM so they make a note if they don't record any REM.

It doesn't necessarily mean they think you have a REM disorder. Even normal people often sleep badly in the lab and may miss their normal REM sleep.

I was under the impression that not having REM sleep does have some very bad long term consequences. It's possible the scientists have changed their mind in the past decade or so.

2) They used to think dreams were only in REM sleep, but they now think lots of dreams occur outside REM.

[zoocrewphoto]

I did a split study for the sleep study, and I did not reach REM during the diagnostic phase. I did not reach deep sleep either. I was remembering dreams almost every morning for years and years, so I think it is safe to say that I do achieve REM sleep at home without treatment. I just probably wasn't hitting them early in the night.

I did reach all the stages while using the machine.

This past week, I have been using a Zeo at night, and it shows my sleep phases. I don't know what the ideal percentages are, but I seem to do pretty well. I already knew I was feeling better with treatment. I got the Zeo because I am keeping a chart of my blood pressure readings every day along with my hours of sleep (total and with machine) and my opinion of the night (great, good, okay, and bad). I have found that since starting treatment, I can barely remember what time I went to bed. I have also been taking my mask off without remembering, and I have been waking up. The apap machine only tells me how long I used it. There is no way to know how much to take off for being awake. ANd I have to look at the detailed data and mask events and do a lot of math to figure out the times I slept without the mask. So, this gives me a better idea of how many hours I actually slept,and makes it much easier.

[Pugsy]

Find out for sure when the not getting to REM sleep applies.
If it applies to just the diagnostic sleep study (no machine) then it would be actually quite common to not get to REM because apnea events in the prior sleep stages cause arousals which start the sleep cycle all over again. Add that on top of trying to sleep in a foreign environment and it wouldn't be unusual at all to not hit REM.

Now if this lack of REM was during the titration study and while on the cpap machine...then we look a little close but still not panic because it might be that period of time was short and not much time to get to REM or again fragmented sleep due to sleeping in a sleep lab. That happened to me.. I had the 2 night thing...so my titration study was a full 8 hour deal but I only got 156 minutes total sleep and it was highly fragmented and I got only 6 minutes of REM.

You you need to figure out just where the non REM sleep statement comes from. It may be something that is quite common and you could very well be getting nice normal REM sleep now that you are on the machine. The apneas got fixed...no more arousals so normal sleep cycles progress as they should through the night.

[lazer]

I have nothing really helpful to add other than I to struggled with reaching "REM" sleep before I started APAP about two months ago. Both my "In Lab" and "In Home" sleep studies indicated I was likely not reaching this stage of sleep along with feeling generally tired, battling Insomnia, and on various meds to knock me out and get me started each day.

Personally I am feeling a bit better in general regarding my energy levels and quality of sleep since going on the hose. The Insomnia has also went away. I am now dreaming OR at least knowing that I'm dreaming now since APAP as I wake up remembering bits and pieces of dreams in the mornings now.

You say your therapy is going great so I assume you are looking at your charts with the software? But then again, like Pugsy has pointed out and I agree, if your feeling rested and better daily then we don't dwell so much on the graphs. I don't know what to suggest but I do personally feel "REM" sleep is important. I'm pretty sure this is the "Restorative" stage of sleep where your body heals cells, ect... but don't quote me on that as I'm still learning.

[n0hardmask]

Hi Everyone,
..trimmed
4. There is a device that people on this board use, is it the zeo, the head band that records some sleep info. Does anyone know if that records R.E.M. sleep, I know it is a lot to ask from a machine but I can hope can''t
5. Has Zeo been of a real help with sleep problems and getting them to feel better by following there program, or is it just a very simple device that might be use some and not to others.
6 If so, wwould you recommend this device to get better sleep.
Thank you all,
Mike

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.
2. Some very rudimentary dreaming can happen outside of R.E.M., but if you have a dream with any real narrative to it, characters, situations, then you are in R.E.M.
3. Can't say on that.
4. Yes, Zeo does report R.E.M. sleep. It records wake, light sleep, deep sleep, and R.E.M. I have one and it works great. I love mine.

Howdy Bear,
I share a few medical conditions with you, but first, I think this subject is Very on-Topic, at least for me and many others.
I've been on APAP since July '11 and on Zeo for 6 weeks. I'm still exhausted due to sleep deprivation, and hope the Zeo can assist in finding improvement. About the Zeo's data: Results VARY greatly with the user and data can be less than accurate.
I sweat since I don't run the AC hard all night; also arthritic muscles keep me awake if chilly; so I sweat enough to bother the sensitive sensors on the Zeo headband. I've recorded an average of less than 20 min Deep Sleep, and it seems to me the REM, Light, and Awake areas are hard for the Zeo do discern. Despite those challenges, the general impression of quality of rest doees seem to be reflected by the Zeo.. in my case I am very disrupted by awakenings, and Zeo's noumbers generally reflect how I feel. So I'd say it can be a handy tool, but do realize your results likely will VARY greatly with the situation. I wish you well.. let us know how things work out.

[BlackSpinner]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

2. Some very rudimentary dreaming can happen outside of R.E.M., but if you have a dream with any real narrative to it, characters, situations, then you are in R.E.M.

Wrong - REM sleep tends to be more challenging emotionally and deal with unpleasant subjects, non-REM dreaming is hippy-dippy love in the park dreaming

[Jim-Bob]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

Please support this. Some antidepressants virtually extinguish REM in folks who were having normal amounts of it before treatment. In fact, REM suppression in itself is a treatment for depression. Psychoses??? What have you been smoking? REM is likely more important the younger you are, and perhaps especially for fetuses.

The wild opinions seem to be flying fast and furious in this thread and perhaps it's best to bring some documentation to the table. I'll check in with mine tonight.

[lazer]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

Please support this. Some antidepressants virtually extinguish REM in folks who were having normal amounts of it before treatment. In fact, REM suppression in itself is a treatment for depression. Psychoses??? What have you been smoking? REM is likely more important the younger you are, and perhaps especially for fetuses.

The wild opinions seem to be flying fast and furious in this thread and perhaps it's best to bring some documentation to the table. I'll check in with mine tonight.

Jim-Bob, In all due respect, you have totally lost me? Are you being supportive in regards to the importance of REM sleep OR are you saying it's no big deal and unnecessary?

[BlackSpinner]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

Please support this. Some antidepressants virtually extinguish REM in folks who were having normal amounts of it before treatment. In fact, REM suppression in itself is a treatment for depression. Psychoses??? What have you been smoking? REM is likely more important the younger you are, and perhaps especially for fetuses.

The wild opinions seem to be flying fast and furious in this thread and perhaps it's best to bring some documentation to the table. I'll check in with mine tonight.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/what-are-dreams.html

REM is required in order to retain information - many studies have shown that. It is also required to deal with stressful situations. If you don't have REM you will start dreaming while you are awake at random times and you have difficulty telling what is dream and what is real.

[Jim-Bob]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

Please support this. Some antidepressants virtually extinguish REM in folks who were having normal amounts of it before treatment. In fact, REM suppression in itself is a treatment for depression. Psychoses??? What have you been smoking? REM is likely more important the younger you are, and perhaps especially for fetuses.

The wild opinions seem to be flying fast and furious in this thread and perhaps it's best to bring some documentation to the table. I'll check in with mine tonight.

Jim-Bob, In all due respect, you have totally lost me? Are you being supportive in regards to the importance of REM sleep OR are you saying it's no big deal and unnecessary?

I'm saying that for adults it's no big deal.

I brought up antidepressants because if REM really was important, then going onto many/most antidepressants would be dangerous for precisely that reason. I was relying on the reader to complete the modus tollens.

[BlackSpinner]

http://www.macalester.edu/academics/psy ... tro04.html

Studies including REM deprivation since Dement’s have reported participants experiencing confusion, suspicion, withdrawal, and being “less well integrated and less interpersonally effective”. The overall impression of REM deprived person is of anxiety, insecurity, and being introspective.

This write up suggests there is no effect on learning for humans, however later studies I have seen show there is a distinct difference in the ability to recall information learned after having REM sleep.

[lazer]

1. R.E.M. sleep is not something you need. It is not restorative sleep. And what happened in a sleep study and what happens at home are two different things.

Lack of REM sleep causes failure of memory, lack of ability to learn new things and various kind of psychoses. But otherwise it is not needed.

Please support this. Some antidepressants virtually extinguish REM in folks who were having normal amounts of it before treatment. In fact, REM suppression in itself is a treatment for depression. Psychoses??? What have you been smoking? REM is likely more important the younger you are, and perhaps especially for fetuses.

The wild opinions seem to be flying fast and furious in this thread and perhaps it's best to bring some documentation to the table. I'll check in with mine tonight.

Jim-Bob, In all due respect, you have totally lost me? Are you being supportive in regards to the importance of REM sleep OR are you saying it's no big deal and unnecessary?

I'm saying that for adults it's no big deal.

I brought up antidepressants because if REM really was important, then going onto many/most antidepressants would be dangerous for precisely that reason. I was relying on the reader to complete the modus tollens.

The part I enlarged above in the "quoted" is what threw me off. I have both experienced and been told this very thing regarding antidepressants and this aspect always being pointed out as a negative "side effect". I guess I never heard or seen a source relating the positives in extinguishing REM sleep and in that way as in suppressing REM to actually treat depression being a "good" thing.

I'm not trying to argue but I would be curious as to understand this better.

[Jim-Bob]

http://www.macalester.edu/academics/psy ... tro04.html

Studies including REM deprivation since Dement’s have reported participants experiencing confusion, suspicion, withdrawal, and being “less well integrated and less interpersonally effective”. The overall impression of REM deprived person is of anxiety, insecurity, and being introspective.

This write up suggests there is no effect on learning for humans, however later studies I have seen show there is a distinct difference in the ability to recall information learned after having REM sleep.

You must have missed this sentence just an inch down the page from the sentence you quoted: "While several studies suggest that REM deprivation can have adverse consequences, there are a number of studies that fail to confirm these findings. The most accepted position currently is that REM deprivation is not deleterious, and can even be beneficial."