Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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JohnBFisher
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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by JohnBFisher » Wed May 23, 2012 12:26 pm

insylem wrote:What's EPR?
EPR stands for "Expiratory Pressure Relief":

http://www.resmed.com/assets/documents/ ... ow_eng.pdf

It is NOT a BiLevel therapy, though it is close, as it does not fully support your respiration during the exhale cycle. Whereas a BiLevel machine provides a separate exhalation pressure that is fully sustained, the EPR feature simply allows the pressure to drop by 1, 2, or 3cm H2O, but does NOT fully push against you while exhaling.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by JohnBFisher » Wed May 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Henry Jr wrote:... I don't fault the tech; I fault the doctor for not ensuring that his staff were properly trained and/or supervised. ...
While I don't disagree with you, after a lot of sleep studies, I learned that it behooves me to call and talk with the manager of the sleep techs before I visit a sleep center for a sleep study. I use this as an interview process. If I am unhappy with the level of experience of the sleep tech manager and/or their sleep techs (for example, if I found that none of them had done an ASV sleep study .. in my example) then I would find another sleep lab.

Then on the night of the sleep study, I come with information about my issue and discuss it clearly with the sleep tech.

While none of these steps should be essential, they do seem to help improve the quality of my sleep studies. And since I have the most to lose when they are not done well, I try to help nudge them along. Regardless of whose responsibility it might be to ascertain the skills of the sleep tech.

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Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
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"I get up. I walk. I fall down. Meanwhile, I keep dancing” from Rabbi Hillel
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Henry Jr
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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Henry Jr » Wed May 23, 2012 12:46 pm

JohnBFisher wrote:... after a lot of sleep studies, I learned ...
I was (at age 52) a virgin to the whole Apnea "thing" and at the time of the first study had not yet educated myself. I know better now.
Again I say, THANK YOU to the members of this forum for the education and experiences you unselfishly share here.

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Zzzzzzzzzzz...
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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzz... » Wed May 23, 2012 12:51 pm

Henry Jr wrote: - my insurance wouldn't pay for a second test so soon.


With a $4000 deductible that I've already MET this year since the start of all this CPAP business, Medica had BETTER pay for this next one. It's their turn.

Thanks for the support,

Z

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Kody » Wed May 23, 2012 12:54 pm

Unfortunately I am finding out the hard way if you have anything over the run of the mill obstructive sleep apnea, your pretty much screwed. At least that has been my experience since starting this journey. Have yet to see one sleep Dr. or respiratory therapist that knows anything about my machine, or much at all about complex sleep apnea. Went in for my follow up after my sleep study with the R.T. and she said if my bipap wasn't doing the job right, I might have to move up to an ASV. I told her THAT is what I'm on now, that was the whole point of me coming in here again. She thought because my machine had the word Bi-pap on it, it wasn't an ASV. I don't think she liked that I had any knowledge of the machine, my condition, and was shocked that I was downloading my own data. Needless to say I have given up on any of these sleep labs and Dr.'s I have been dealing with, and am doing the rest on my own. Sorry to sound a little negative, but it can be very frustrating at times, you really have to be your own advocate.

I do however want to say that if it wasn't for this forum and the wonderful helpful people on it, I would have tossed the whole thing and given up. This place has been a wealth of knowledge, experienced advice, encouragement, and a place to get feed back for problems, especially when it comes to the more complicated ASV's. We make up a much smaller percentage of sleep apnea patients, so I do understand why the "professionals" aren't all well versed in this area. However it would be nice if they were more commonly available.

To the O.P. good luck on your next sleep study, it would be nice if you didn't have to go with an ASV just because of the expense and finding a Dr. that knows anything about them. However like I said before, if you need one, you need it. Mine has helped tremendously but they do take some tweaking, and getting used to, but they can also be a life saver for those of us who require them.
Complex Sleep Apnea

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Zzzzzzzzzzz...
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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzz... » Wed May 23, 2012 1:03 pm

Thanks for the support Kody. Maybe my answer will lay in a more "simple" Bi-Pap equation. You would think that since my lab has recommended the Bi-pap/ASV titration that they have some experience with them... that's my belief anyway, I like to believe that they simply put the wrong tech on my case that night... I supposedly have the right one this next time... We'll see...

Z

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzz... » Wed May 23, 2012 3:20 pm

JohnBFisher wrote:I learned that it behooves me to call and talk with the manager of the sleep techs before I visit a sleep center for a sleep study. I use this as an interview process. If I am unhappy with the level of experience of the sleep tech manager and/or their sleep techs (for example, if I found that none of them had done an ASV sleep study .. in my example) then I would find another sleep lab.

Then on the night of the sleep study, I come with information about my issue and discuss it clearly with the sleep tech.

While none of these steps should be essential, they do seem to help improve the quality of my sleep studies. And since I have the most to lose when they are not done well, I try to help nudge them along. Regardless of whose responsibility it might be to ascertain the skills of the sleep tech.

Well, I just had a very interesting chat with the sleep tech manager. It seems she concurred with my tech's evaluation and explained why. My sleep was VERY fragmented and it was difficult to ascertain why. When I WAS sleeping, my sleep was GREAT. Problem was I didn't STAY asleep, and they scored most of my events as post arousals rather than true Centrals. Incidentally, in REM, I had just as many- from what I've read in REM most cases of CSA and CA don't score too many in that stage. Anyway, seeing how Bi Level/ASV is the logical next step and this was my FIRST titration, they wanted to do things by the book and titrate me first with CPAP (according to the rules). This would guarantee that if I DO need ASV, that Bi Pap would follow first and they could then prove that ASV (if successful) was the 3rd and final step. This all of course to be sure insurance covers this VERY expensive treatment. Makes sense to me I suppose... and she also confirmed that my next titration will start with Bi Pap and then move to ASV. She didn't see how Bi Pap would help however... so I'm hoping ASV is the answer. I have faith they're on top of my treatment and doing what's necessary. Finally, we talked pressures in the meantime. She said 6 or 7 looked ideal for me, (she had my study in hand) and that even though after 4 or 5 nights of low AHI's at 7cm and on the 6th/7th night a spike, I should stay the course instead of confusing the hell out of my respiratory system. Guess I'll continue with 7cm tonight and see. Finally, not saying CPAP isn't needed in my case, but what can account for the fragmentation? Is everything POST? I have old injuries from a motorcycle racing incident (2004 and VERY BAD) that cause a really stiff neck, upper and lower back and I know I toss and turn to relieve pressure most of the night. Would muscle relaxers and/or Advil help in that area? Would this even be a cause of my centrals and the underlying issue that CPAP can't even begin to help? I would think getting deeper good sleep would help repair some of the muscle/soft tissue if only I had ENOUGH of it. Ugh.

Thanks all for bearing with me.

Z

PS: Important to note: During my titration she strapped a True Blue nasal mask to my face so tight (to prevent leaks) It felt like a scene from "Alien". Next time I wear my Aloha and chin strap. I can only assume that contraption caused SOME of the fragmentation?... I've never worn a nasal mask before.

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by SleepingUgly » Wed May 23, 2012 6:35 pm

I'm confused. The sleep tech manager and the sleep doc don't interpret the results of your study the same way?
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzz... » Thu May 24, 2012 6:26 am

SleepingUgly wrote:I'm confused. The sleep tech manager and the sleep doc don't interpret the results of your study the same way?


Nope. Chicken or egg scenario regarding centrals. Tech/manager stands firm they're post arousal, PA/doc uncertain. Thus 2nd titration with Bipap/ASV to be sure one way or the other. Incidentally, last night on 7cm, my AHI went down to 5, with most of the night pretty good... cluster of CA's right before getting out of bed. I'm scratching my head...

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by -SWS » Thu May 24, 2012 7:06 am

Zzzzzzzzzzz... wrote: Nope. Chicken or egg scenario regarding centrals. Tech/manager stands firm they're post arousal, PA/doc uncertain. Thus 2nd titration with Bipap/ASV to be sure one way or the other. Incidentally, last night on 7cm, my AHI went down to 5, with most of the night pretty good... cluster of CA's right before getting out of bed. I'm scratching my head...
Well, if the central apneas are post-arousal, then they are epiphenomena of some other issue related to sleep, such as pain, PLMs, low arousal threshold, poor sleeping environment, etc.

My impression is that most sleep doctors will not directly treat post-arousal central apneas---unless they happen to be long enough or frequent enough to pose significant hypoxemia. Why? Because treating the AFTER effect of your sleep disturbances will not fix the sleep, and it will not fix the primary problem. Fixing post-arousal central apneas that do not pose hypoxemic risk really amounts to fixing the flow waveform itself and nothing more.

That said, I'm glad your sleep professionals are willing to evaluate how your sleep and breathing respond to other treatment modalities. Good luck with this, Z.

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Re: Pressure induced Centrals: Need advice please. ASV next?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzz... » Thu May 24, 2012 8:39 am

-SWS wrote:
Zzzzzzzzzzz... wrote: Nope. Chicken or egg scenario regarding centrals. Tech/manager stands firm they're post arousal, PA/doc uncertain. Thus 2nd titration with Bipap/ASV to be sure one way or the other. Incidentally, last night on 7cm, my AHI went down to 5, with most of the night pretty good... cluster of CA's right before getting out of bed. I'm scratching my head...
Well, if the central apneas are post-arousal, then they are epiphenomena of some other issue related to sleep, such as pain, PLMs, low arousal threshold, poor sleeping environment, etc.

My impression is that most sleep doctors will not directly treat post-arousal central apneas---unless they happen to be long enough or frequent enough to pose significant hypoxemia. Why? Because treating the AFTER effect of your sleep disturbances will not fix the sleep, and it will not fix the primary problem. Fixing post-arousal central apneas that do not pose hypoxemic risk really amounts to fixing the flow waveform itself and nothing more.

That said, I'm glad your sleep professionals are willing to evaluate how your sleep and breathing respond to other treatment modalities. Good luck with this, Z.

Exactly. We spoke about possible OTHER causes for my fragmentation... (pain, stiffness, injuries, anxiety, environment, body memory of tossing/turning habits, mattress, pillow, etc, etc- I've shown no indication of PLM). But until we rule out classic CSA (which she was NOT convinced I have either) I'm going to refrain from driving myself even MORE insane over it all. That being said, if it IS anxiety related or something of a "psychiatric" nature... where do I turn? Sleep therapist? Is abnormal brain activity something my sleep study would indicate? And if so, would it even lead me to any useful information? I'd think sleep studies, for the most part focus on SDB rather than brain function/waves...