If you become "CPAP intolerant"

NeurosurgeryNP · Post by **NeurosurgeryNP** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:51 am

I was actually offered a dental appliance after my first sleep study, but, I have TMJ pain and cracking and I did not want to make it worse. So, my doc encouraged me to be compliant with cpap. I am here a year later, 100% compliant and with a new lease on life.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:42 pm

You are much better off with a CPAP than a dental appliance, so you are fortunate. I wish all CPAP users were as compliant as you.

The fact you have TMD issues brings up another reason for education among dentists supplying appliances. These can't be ignored.

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:04 pm

and naturally, Kent Smith, you are selling something? one of the few things i do not like about this forum is that we allow ourselves to be sitting ducks for anyone selling anything, whether it is PAD A CHEEK or a dentist we don't know. when i want to read an advertisement, whether it is a straight ad, a testimonial, an infomerical or anything else, i'll go read it. i'm old-fashioned. i like my advertising and my information separate and to come from separate sources. but that's me.

caroline

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:48 pm

Caroline,

I guess since you weren't a member back last October, you wouldn't be aware of this. But when PadACheeks were introduced to this forum, it was via a FREE trial offer for members who were willing to try them and report back with honest feedback to the other members of this site. Karen, who makes the PACs, is a fellow apnea sufferer who uses therapy nightly and she was looking for honest opinions on her product, so she GAVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE - and at the risk that the people who tried them may give negative feedback on the boards here. She was not peddling them, as you are suggesting she did. And since they went over so well, Johnny picked them up as a product to sell on the site. I think many members are glad that she made her product known because they truly have helped a lot of people feel better about their therapy and helping them to be more compliant.

Also, I am not so sure I agree with you that Kent here is pushing any product at all. I get the impression (and I don't do impressions...) that he is a nice man just putting the word out there. I think sometimes people can tend to jump to conclusions when they read things like this, just as they did with poor Craig who now withdrew all his posts and left this site on account of the leaps some members made in response to his posts. I would suggest that we not always think the worst of everyone who posts with an idea other than what we're used to. It's not ALWAYS to make a buck off of the members.

gary bankston · Post by **gary bankston** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:55 pm

Personally Caroline, if it weren't for websites like this and people having things to sell (advertise), you wouldn't know things exist to help you along in life. One would hope that everyone would discover what is available (here or anywhere) and research it before just lambasting people for advertising. Assuming you'll never do business with anyone, you'll never have the need to advertise. Otherwise, you better hope someone reads your advertisement or you're gonna be one hungry person.

gb

wading thru the muck! · Post by **wading thru the muck!** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:18 pm

chdurie2 wrote: one of the few things i do not like about this forum is that we allow ourselves to be sitting ducks for anyone selling anything, whether it is PAD A CHEEK or a dentist we don't know.

Caroline,

PAD A CHEEK was a member of this forum and created a product to serve a need many of us had. Is she supposed to leave because she did this. Many of us are thankful that she has gone to the effort to create and offer her product. I think it is out of line to lump her in with any and all "snake oil" salesmen that "drop in" to hawk their products.

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:16 pm

folks--

it's my point of view. i don't agree with you. i realized that there might be a certain non-politically correct aspect of what i said, particularly with reference to PAD A CHEEK. Frequently sellers of a new, good product give it away initially to promote trial to others and to get their own market research, which normally costs money for a seller. And frequently on this site, i see testimonials that pop up seemingly from nowhere from various people to try PAD A CHEEK. In context, if someone is complaining about a mark problem, i have no problem with someone suggesting PAD A CHEEK or any of the other mark hiders, just as if someone suggests a particular mask or hose to solve a problem. But out of nowhere? To me, that is spam. People here don't tend to recommend the other mark hiders, but to its credit, cpap.com lists all of them for sale on its site. Of course, the prices are twice as high than on ebay or the sellers' own sites. Karen may be "one of our own," but in the context of PAD A CHEEK, she is a seller, just like ResMed.
And I would not be happy if Res Med wandered onto this forum and peddled masks or cpap information. If it was a one-time deal where they offered a new-type, free mask to use and give feedback on in exchange for keeping the mask, that might be a different story. Don't get me wrong. I think PAD A CHEEK is a good product, and the mark-hider invention may well be patentable by one of its developers. I myself bought PAD A CHEEK for cosmetic reasons, because I thought PAD A CHEEK had a cuter print. But I don't think PAD A CHEEK should be advertising here, nor do I think dentists should be coming here as a come-on to selling other products or services. Let's have all of the other mark-hider "inventors" (ebay lists three) come here and sprinkle their presentations in our threads, as well as all dentists, saline gel manufacturers, whatever.

Shoot me. It's my opinion, politically unpopular as it may be.

Caroline

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:43 pm

Caroline,

No one wants to "shoot you," but it sounds like you have a bone to pick with PadACheek that you're taking out in this thread. This wasn't even about PACs, yet you brought her into it and now are really being rather disrespectful in your critique of her intentions, which it becomes obvious that you don't know her since they are way off the mark.

No one has ever stopped any of the other manufacturers of this type of product from discussing it on the site, plus Karen was a member before she offered her product here for a free trial. And you make Karen seem like she was using this site to avoid paying money for market researching. Why are you being so negative towards her? People here couldn't get their emails in fast enough before the trial pairs were all used up. It was a totally symbiotic event for all involved. And as a result, PACs has received a lot of positive feedback by the USERS, not from the manufacturer tooting her own horn. You are the ONLY person who seems to have a gripe with this lady so far. Yet, you say you bought a pair and like them. How would you have known about them otherwise? You took advantage of the fact that they WERE made known here on this site, so you are kind of contradicting what you say.

And from what I understand, spam is when the Saturn car company or Nestles Quik comes to this site and places a totally self-serving promotion of a product that is unrelated to the topic of the forum, OSA. And I would love for you to do some research and show me a link to any "ad" she has posted on this web site promoting her product. The members have done it for her since it was so well liked. You won't find any post from her personally selling her wares here. I don't believe it exists.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which I believe you are stating is disliking spam and wishing you didn't have to see it here. But when you bring someone as innocent as Karen into the mix and then say things which, IN MY OPINION, have no foundation, there seems to be more to this than meets the eye.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:20 pm

I won't speak for Karen, but I certainly appreciate the words of defense. I have been on bulletin boards, forums and email lists for 10 years, and definitely understand the angst involved when an advertiser comes in, makes a pitch, then leaves. I don't appreciate that.

I have absolutely no financial interest in any dental appliance of any kind. In fact, John Remmers, who you can all thank for your CPAPs, is a friend of mine, and we have had many discussions about the way to best educate the public who simply can't wear a CPAP.

My sole purpose for coming here was to further that cause. It saddens me that so many MDs do not follow up with patients to make sure they are wearing their CPAP. We screen all of our patients and find so many that have been left hanging. The first thing I tell patients (usually their spouses) is that there are methods available to make the process more comfortable, and that the gold standard for OSA is the CPAP. I am actually trying to NOT make money in this situation.

So, I do not profit from the manufacture of any specific device, nor do I profit from the ApneaDocs web site. If people think I am here to get someone from 1,000 miles away to become my patient..well...let's just say I can make better use of my marketing time.

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:08 pm

sleepless:

it's no more than i say that it is. i really do not like people peddling their products or come-ons disguised as such on an informational, support-oriented consumer message boards. where else can i get the info? lots of places. i can look up cpap alternatives on the net if i want a cpap alternative. i saw PAD A CHEEK and its competitors on ebay before i came to this board. sorry, but I got involved defending my opinion about PAD A CHEEK advertising here because others thought it unfair to one of our own. i was trying to say i think the issues are the same, whether it is a dentist, PAD A CHEEK or ResMed. Under certain conditions, I would have no problem with ResMed being here, namely if it were clear the company was offering a benefit we might not get elsewhere, and all they wanted in return was information. If the dentist just dropped by just to give us useful information that does not dovetail into his own profit-making venture, then i overreacted and apologize to him. I have no problem with cpap.com interviews with manufacturer's reps on new products because they are clearly marked as such. But i think there are boundaries between sellers and buyers, and i prefer the boundaries respected.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:48 pm

I thought the name of this place was "CPAPTalk" not DentalTalk?

If one really wants to learn about Dental treatments they can always visit the TAS Dental forum where they can read bout the 3 or 4 patients claiming to be completely cured of OSA using those devices.

Wait a minute, make that only 3, Swordz you're still fighting that battle with OSA now are'nt ya buddy

Hey Kent Smith: Tell ya what, you fix our buddy Swordz OSA problem here then we'll listen to how good your Dental treatments truly are. You see he's a student under 25yrs of age and on limited income. I can understand why he would not want to be on cpap for the rest of his life.

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:26 pm

My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that it is fine for people to post about treatment options. As long as the issue is sleep apnea or related matters, I am glad to hear about it.

If we start getting non-informational, obviously pushy, biased, too-frequent sales pitches, THEN I would complain. Our friendly DDS is not in that category.

Moogy

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:44 pm

Dr. Smith:

I'm not going to apologize for expressing my thoughts here to other users, which have now progressed to red flags in your message, on your website and on your friend's website that send me running the other way. Others here may benefit from what you say.

Why should I thank your self-professed friend and colleague for my CPAP equipment? Please illuminate me. He appears to be a Canadian doctor-turned-manufacturer of CPAP equipment. I have never heard of any piece of equipment even sold by any of his companies. Personally, I thank Dr. Sullivan, founder of ResMed. If I am wrong, please illuminate me.

But it bothers me when a dentist offers his professional or personal friendship with another medical professional as a credential in an unsolicited introduction. Some doctors and dentists view that as an unethical practice. I am not saying you are unethical, only that many medical/dental professionals prefer that their own factually verifiable accomplishments in an area speak for themselves.

It's really hard for me to hear your message when you have not been introduced by a creditable source and your offices appear to be fancier than most homes in very posh neighborhoods. We can tell that you invest a lot of money in cosmetics attached to your practice, but there are are some who may not view that as an attractive credential. And no doubt, with the services and hype that, in my opinion, go beyond making a patient comfortable with dentistry, you are an aggressive marketer. It does not mean that you are not a competent dentist, only that it's hard for me to see you beyond the flashiness.

As for the possibility of taking patients that are even 100 miles away, I hope it is your practice to instead refer them to local dentists who may offer them similar help. Apnea patients can be a desperate audience. People here should know that there are dentists who may not lure patients from far away, but they don't turn them away either, because they are safer hedges against possible malpractice actions. I say this from personal experience. Folks, you have a nightmare ahead of you if anything should go wrong with you and a long-distance dentist. A local dentist probably can get you out of any trouble you get into, by then you may have wasted thousands of dollars in dental treatment with your friendly, far-away dentist. So it personally just makes me a bit nervous when i hear a dentist on an internet message board volunteer that he doesn't need patients more than 1,000 miles away and then i see that his internet driving directions point out his proximity to a local Holiday Inn in addition to other landmarks. But hey, I could be over-reacting.

Hey Dr. Smith, your patients may love you because of all you have done for their mouth. You could be a fountain of reliable information for everyone on this board. You could have totally altruistic motives and practices. Your colleagues may think the world of you. And if that is so, I would be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Caroline

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:37 pm

I appreciate your concerns, Caroline, and do not blame you for having some negative feelings about any dentist at all, specifically me. Kinda comes with the territory, and it seems like you have had some bad experiences, for which I am sad to hear.

I mistakenly assumed you knew who John Remmers was. In 1985, he invented the CPAP, and later the REMstar Auto CPAP. That was why I said you could thank him for it. Does that make sense? Sorry I was less than complete in my explanation. Seems I get in trouble easily when I'm typing and watching basketball at the same time

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:48 pm

That is incorrect, Kent. The CPAP was invented be Dr. Colin Sullivan in 1980. Here's a link you can click on to learn a bit about the history:
Sleep Pioneer Remembers the Early Days of CPAP

Caroline, I see your point. I think what sends up red flags is when someone puts links to their personal business in the signature of every post.

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If you become "CPAP intolerant"

OK with me