If you become "CPAP intolerant"

Guest-Ha! · Post by **Guest-Ha!** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:52 pm

Anonymous wrote:Caroline, I see your point. I think what sends up red flags is when someone puts links to their personal business in the signature of every post.

Kind of like when guests won't sign-in at all to identify themselves, right?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:55 pm

You would know.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:03 pm

Oops. I am very sorry, and am glad I was corrected. Apparently, the fact I have always been told Remmers had invented the first electronically monitored CPAP meant he had invented the CPAP, but that is obviously wrong.

From now on, I will only answer questions I am asked directly, and stay out of everyone's way.

Snoozie · Post by **Snoozie** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:42 pm

I for one am open to all options for apnea treatment. How else do we find out about options unless someone tells us? For those that don't want to read the posts, they should not read them, however many people come here for all the information they can get and can then take many questions for their physicians ( or dentists) whether they be good or bad. I prefer to be as informed as possible.

I actually have a question for Dr. Smith since I am on CPap and still snore even with my mouth taped. My dentist pointed out a a possible cause and for the life of me, I can't remember what it was at the moment. Could a dental appliance possible stop this? Actually, the last time I was at my dentist's office, I asked him about my severe headaches and he gave me a lot of information regarding my mouth to take to my ENT. That was before I was diagnosed with sleep apnea. Will be interesting to speak with him again regarding my diagnosis when I have my next appointment in May.

I am totally compliant with my Cpap, but being informed and asking a lot of questions never hurt anyone.

Swordz · Post by **Swordz** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:48 pm

Guest wrote:I thought the name of this place was "CPAPTalk" not DentalTalk?

If you'd take the time and look over the forum you'd realize pretty much anything is game here. I'm wasting my time replying to this, but the forum is for OSA support.

Guest wrote:If one really wants to learn about Dental treatments they can always visit the TAS Dental forum where they can read bout the 3 or 4 patients claiming to be completely cured of OSA using those devices.

Apparently we're in preschool again! Paul, RickRed, and others have all presented pre and post dental device PSG's. Apparently sleep studies in medical labs aren't credible evidence. What does it matter how a patient gets treatment? Isn't it just the fact they're treating what ails them?

Guest wrote:Wait a minute, make that only 3, Swordz you're still fighting that battle with OSA now are'nt ya buddy

Yes, my OSA is still basically untreated after CPAP, nasal surgery, and dental device. Oh wait, that list doesn't just have dental device, but CPAP as well! Huh, what a coincidence that one person can't find suitable treatment from one solution?

Me from 1st Page: "OSA treatment is dependent on the patient, the obstruction(s), and the type of apnea."

Obviously treatment dependent on obstruction would mean tongue obstruction in light of dental device usage. Yes, dental device didn't work for me. No, I don't have tongue obstruction, but a recessed jaw and upper airway upstructions.

Guest wrote:Hey Kent Smith: Tell ya what, you fix our buddy Swordz OSA problem here then we'll listen to how good your Dental treatments truly are. You see he's a student under 25yrs of age and on limited income. I can understand why he would not want to be on cpap for the rest of his life.

Anyone wants to throw some advice my way, I'm all ears. I consider myself a proactive patient and literally drool to learn everything I can about OSA, its causes and treatments. An educated patient is a better one, and one that can dictate thier own treatment better (of course w/ doc's advice included).

CPAP, dental device, or whatever non-permanent treatments are not options I'd like to have to use for life. Of course my OSA isn't going away and its my responcibility to treat it. OSA is complicated and a multi-doctored approach is the best way to treat apnea. Pulmologists, Dentists, Otolarygologists, Oral-Surgeorns, Psychologists, Neurologists: all are available in the treatment and diagnosis of OSA and related disorders. Why are there so many? You can't spell complicated and varied-causes without OSA.

Now can I get a cpaptalk.com-loving hug from someone? I'm done preaching and pass around the offering plates...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:52 pm

Well said, Swordz.

Sending a hug your way.

Snoozie · Post by **Snoozie** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:57 pm

OSA is complicated and a multi-doctored approach is the best way to treat apnea. Pulmologists, Dentists, Otolarygologists, Oral-Surgeorns, Psychologists, Neurologists: all are available in the treatment and diagnosis of OSA and related disorders. Why are there so many? You can't spell complicated and varied-causes without OSA.

Very well stated, Swordz, and I totally agree.

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:11 am

Yes, Dr. Smith, the website of the Dental Organization for Sleep Apnea, an organization of which both you and Dr. Remmers are on the advisory board/board of directors, does suggest that Dr. Remmers invented cpap by stating that he developed the first electronically monitered device in 1985. But not even Dr. Remmers' own website takes credit for more than technical improvements to cpap. I think it is well-established that Dr. Colin Sullivan invented cpap in Australia in 1981 by then patenting the first nasal cpap device after two years of playing with vacuum cleaners operating in reverse in his sleep labs. i see your correction here. but i am just such a stickler for accurate presentation of information, and i find subjectively distorted presentation of facts so misleading. and it's so inconvenient that the credit for invention goes to the winner of the race to the patent office, isn't it?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:13 am

Snoozie wrote:I actually have a question for Dr. Smith since I am on CPap and still snore even with my mouth taped.

Snoozie, I'm confused. I thought being on cpap eliminated snoring. If you're still snoring on cpap doesn't that mean your pressure isn't high enough?

Snoozie · Post by **Snoozie** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:19 am

Apparently not. My pressure is high enough. I have trouble breathing if it is any higher. Have not figured this all out yet. I am a possible candidate for BiPap and also possible central apnea. Don't know exactly what is going on - just know that when my pressure was set higher, I had problems. I don't snore a lot, but occasionally I wake myself up with a brief snore, even with mouth taped. Cpap definitely has helped a lot though.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:23 am

Hey Snoozie. Swordz might have already helped a bit, but let me expand a bit if it would help.

The problem your dentist might have pointed out was most likely the fact your tongue is collapsing against the back of your throat and fluttering, which is the snoring sound. Most dental devices are MADs (mandibular advancement devices), which simply move the mandible forward during sleep, bringing the tongue with it.

The other types are tongue stabilizers, such as the Aveo TSD, which is a lot like a pacifier, using vaccuum forces to hold your tongue outside your mouth. Most of my patients get a very foul look on their face when I discuss that one.

We inspect the tongue to see if the sides are shaped like the inner contours of the lower teeth. This indicates that the tongue is looking for space and pushing against the teeth. Just one sign of snoring/OSA, so maybe your dentist noticed this and wanted the ENT to know about it. He also might have gotten a Malampatti score and reported that to the ENT for a potential UPPP.

As you are probably aware, headaches are another symptom of poor O2 supply, BUT, if the CPAP is doing the job, maybe you are also clenching. If your headaches are more prevalent in the morning, and especially if they are temple-based, above the eyes or from the back of the scull, nightime clenching is probably going on. You might ask your dentist about the NTI device if this is the case. We have made many of these for CPAP users.

The snoring makes this a bit more complicated, but the NTI SnoreHook would be the way to go in this situation.
http://www.nti-tss.com/SNORING/SnoreHook-Discluder.pdf

If your dentist needs help with this, let me know.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:30 am

[quote="chdurie2"]but i am just such a stickler for accurate presentation of information, and i find subjectively distorted presentation of facts so misleading.

chdurie2 · Post by **chdurie2** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:42 am

btw, dr. kent, my name is caroline, as marked on my posts. and it looks like dr. remmer's pr people are doing a fine job. but maybe you want to talk to your own organization's pr people, since it looks like the error is theirs. and silly me, but i just would have thought, a dentist who claims to be so involved in apnea treatment would know that his friend and colleague did not invent cpap and would know the basic facts of cpap invention history. pass the buck is another game i don't like. but that's just me.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:57 am

Sorry, Caroline. BTW, Dr. Remmers is very humble, and he has never told me he "invented the CPAP", but I have had quite a few others tell me he did. Then when his PR people sent the wording that was copy/pasted to the DOSA web site, I didn't read it closely enough to see the difference. Not sure I feel good about changing the biographical data sent to us, so I would rather them send the changes if appropriate.

I am truly sorry I have upset you so easily.

Darth Vader Look · Post by **Darth Vader Look** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:18 am

I really didn't want to chime in here but I think things are getting a little carried away. I really don't like having my options censored and this is not the site/forum to do that on. If you want that there is the ASAA site.

Caroline, why did you not sound off on tommyboy and his new CPAP when he introduced it here:?: Isn't that the same thing I read tommyboy's posts with great interest on the ASAA forum and the feedback he received. Funny thing is that we were the first forum to see his new style CPAP which many people are quite interested in. Unfortunately, the regulars at ASAA were probably last to see what they initially contributed to. As a side note and a little off topic - ASAA has allowed tommyboy to post the unit and website there - doesn't that go against their IRS posting policy Back on topic again, I don't mind that Kent has posted some information here. What I wouldn't want to see is continuous ads for this stuff. He has mentioned that he will address questions posed directly at him. I don't think he has done any wrong. In fact he has provided information that may help someone else out. You don't have to go through him as his site has a list of dentists that do this and maybe somebodies dentist would be interested if their patient requests help.

This is the beauty of this site. Because we are so open and Johnny Goodman stands behind it we are able to see new innovations and devices that may help some. Unfortunately we get some spam. I think this site puts a bright light on a lot of the wrong doings in the CPAP world and for me it has been a big eye opener. It has helped me and is why I come back to help others out and get some help in return .

Mask

Additional Comments: Large mask collection

Mask

Additional Comments: Large mask collection