TROLL ALERT! - IF YOU ARE BORED HERE IS YOUR CHANCE TO TROLL

[-SWS]

I almost forgot about that part of my life... If it wasn't for that combination tornado/fire/earthquake/microburst/hail storm back in '88 I would STILL have a copy of that cherished picture in my OWN fond-memories scrap book. Thanks for reminding me brain_cloud! Boy... That's when I smoked like a proverbial smoking monkey!

That picture is priceless, -SWS!

Hilarious picture compliments of brain_cloud.

[WearyOne]

He used to make comments about my weight, one time even looking me in the eye and saying "you look like you've gotten even fatter!!" Even after I spoke to another family member, who then went and asked him to please stop making comments, he didn't see where it was a problem. He honestly felt that because he was just kidding -- and the same comments made to him wouldn't have upset him at all -- that there was nothing wrong with saying them. After all -- he was kidding and didn't mean anything bad.

But you know what -- he, to this day, doesn't think he did anything wrong and SWEARS that he was only joking and that if any of us were upset, it was because we were too sensitive and couldn't take a joke.

He's not being intentionally difficult or dense -- this is what he BELIEVES. No amount of talking or convincing is going to change that.

I have a similar situation in my family. This person believes that if HE doesn't think something should hurt or bother someone else that he says or does then the other person is the one with the problem, not him. I totally disagree. If you know that something you continually do or say is upsetting someone else, even if you didn't mean it that way or you don't think it should bother them, to continue to do it is not right and not caring. You don't have to change what you believe in order to stop doing something hurtful to someone else; just save it for those that "get your brand of humor," etc.

Granted, some folks are too sensitive, but if you care about them, you'll stop the hurtful behavior. And sometimes they're not too sensitive at all...

[WearyOne]

<snip>

(2) ...I don't like foul language, overt provocative sexual inuendo, and personal attacks. Those things will happen in public on a non-moderated board. I don't condemn that it happens; it just isn't my cup of tea. That may make me wimpy, cowardly, too soft--I don't know. I think a lot of great help is offered on this board when things aren't happening to turn people off.

Very well said; much better than I have said it in the past.

[M.D.Hosehead]

[quote="Madalot"][quote="-SWS"] {Sleepy Taz,} get the impression that you had an initial opinion of NotMuffy which you later revised----after more reading.

---and then he posted a written retraction and apology. You seldom see that kind of concern, honesty, humility and ethical standard. And I, for one, am impressed, TAZ.

[-SWS]

Another point to make is that there are times a comment is made by someone that is meant to be kind or humorous, but is not RECEIVED that way by someone else. The writer may have had nothing but good intentions, but the reader interpreted the comments as hostile, rude or inappropriate. That happens with me and my husband all the time and we're in the same room. The nature of the internet (email, message boards, etc) makes for a breeding ground for this type of misunderstanding.

Madalot, very well said IMO... I know I have sure been on both sides of that misinterpretation equation many times.

You seldom see that kind of concern, honesty, humility and ethical standard. And I, for one, am impressed, TAZ.

Add me to TAZ's impressed list.

[Madalot]

If you know that something you continually do or say is upsetting someone else, even if you didn't mean it that way or you don't think it should bother them, to continue to do it is not right and not caring. You don't have to change what you believe in order to stop doing something hurtful to someone else; just save it for those that "get your brand of humor," etc.

Granted, some folks are too sensitive, but if you care about them, you'll stop the hurtful behavior. And sometimes they're not too sensitive at all...

That's what I said too! I've had to do with this family member the same thing I've done with my medical situation -- accept the bad and focus on the good. This family member is NOT going to change (like my disease is NOT going to improve). I deal with both situations as best I can and try to find something good about it to focus on. And there IS good about that family member, so when I'm ready to kill him, I remember the good things he's done and take a deep breath.

But I agree with you that a truly caring person would stop doing something once they are told it's hurting someone else.

[Madalot]

Another point to make is that there are times a comment is made by someone that is meant to be kind or humorous, but is not RECEIVED that way by someone else. The writer may have had nothing but good intentions, but the reader interpreted the comments as hostile, rude or inappropriate. That happens with me and my husband all the time and we're in the same room. The nature of the internet (email, message boards, etc) makes for a breeding ground for this type of misunderstanding.

Madalot, very well said IMO... I know I have sure been on both sides of that misinterpretation equation many times.

And something EXACTLY like this just happened tonight. We had a family dinner that I was preparing (a family member birthday). My daughter and I had had "words" earlier, but had gotten past it. We had prepared potatoes for the oven and I asked my husband to put them in (pan too heavy for me). He jokingly asked if they were seasoned properly and I said "Don't worry. They're perfect. [Daughter] seasoned them."

I meant it as a compliment -- I was saying she knows what she's doing and always does them well. I was being nice and meant it totally in a nice way. But she looked at me with a death glare and I realized my comment was misconstrued. She took it that I was being a wise ass towards her, making it sound like she THINKS everything she does is perfect.

[DoriC]

{Sleepy Taz,}

---and then he posted a written retraction and apology. You seldom see that kind of concern, honesty, humility and ethical standard. And I, for one, am impressed, TAZ.

jnk, although TAZ's post was somewhat different but honestly stated, I think we're also seeing this honesty and humility in your words as well. Your chronology of events makes sense to me. Perhaps that's why members were so disappointed, because you're held in such high regard here. As difficult as it was, there was a lot to be learned from this thread and I think we're now all a little wiser.

[SleepingUgly]

But I agree with you that a truly caring person would stop doing something once they are told it's hurting someone else.

Boy, if only it were true that all it takes for behavioral change is "caring". There are so many things that go into behavioral change, including recognizing ahead of time that you're about to do the thing that hurts the other person, weighing not doing it above all the things that weighed toward doing it, insight, impulse control, an alternative behavior to substitute in its place, the willingness to subjugate your needs for someone else's, alterations in beliefs/values that drove the behavior in the first place, yada yada yada. It is just not that simple to say that truly caring is enough to change behavior, or all relationships based on love would be without conflict, and we would all be doing what the other person wants us to do (although perhaps at the expense of our own needs).

[Madalot]

{Sleepy Taz,}

---and then he posted a written retraction and apology. You seldom see that kind of concern, honesty, humility and ethical standard. And I, for one, am impressed, TAZ.

jnk, although TAZ's post was somewhat different but honestly stated, I think we're also seeing this honesty and humility in your words as well. Your chronology of events makes sense to me. Perhaps that's why members were so disappointed, because you're held in such high regard here. As difficult as it was, there was a lot to be learned from this thread and I think we're now all a little wiser.

I agree with you Dori. I appreciate the honesty I've seen in these posts and feel I've learned a few things through this thread.

[WearyOne]

But I agree with you that a truly caring person would stop doing something once they are told it's hurting someone else.

Boy, if only it were true that all it takes for behavioral change is "caring". There are so many things that go into behavioral change, including recognizing ahead of time that you're about to do the thing that hurts the other person, weighing not doing it above all the things that weighed toward doing it, insight, impulse control, an alternative behavior to substitute in its place, the willingness to subjugate your needs for someone else's, alterations in beliefs/values that drove the behavior in the first place, yada yada yada. It is just not that simple to say that truly caring is enough to change behavior, or all relationships based on love would be without conflict, and we would all be doing what the other person wants us to do (although perhaps at the expense of our own needs).

Sometimes it isn't that simple, but sometimes it is. Every relationship will have arguments and conflicts, and things said in the heat of "battle," things to push the other person's buttons, so to speak. But when a person continually says things "jokingly"--which obviously wouldn't be during a conflict--that they have been told repeatedly upsets the other person, but they don't stop because they don't think it should hurt the other person, that's different. Sure, it can come from really deep-seated issues and problems that are more complex. But sometimes it's just plain the person cares more for themselves than anyone else; they're right and everyone else is wrong. Sometimes it is just that simple.

[DoriC]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say they were only "joking" and "you're too senstive"!

[NotMuffy]

A muffin with hair is still a muffin. Maybe an out-of-fashion muffin, but a muffin nonetheless.

Well, it may still be a muffin, but I certainly wouldn't want to eat it!

Now I look like Art Garmuffin (Simon and Garmuffin? You know, "Muffin Over Troubled Water"? "Sounds of Muffins"? "Feelin' Muffy"? "Mrs. Muffinson" (or was that "Mrs. Robinmuff"))?

[plr66]

Wow. Gotta say that I've been greatly consternated for the past several days about what I'm reading here about the double or multiple identities being posted on this forum. And have to admit that as a two-year dedicated reader/poster, I have been totally naive to most of this, and am totally disillusioned about what I'm reading...
I think we need some fess-up details from jnk and "really" and others involved in this kind of scamming. Sorry. I respect what jnk contributes. But the duplicity doesn't cut it for me.

What would you like to know, plr66?

Sorry, Jeff, but I had to go to bed last night before I could read responses. What I wanted to know is simply: What other names did you use, and why such a kind, gentle, even-tempered, peace-loving and wise man would be posting covertly under another name. I clearly felt some sense of non-personal "betrayal" & deceit, but had no idea what name you were using as of last night, so no idea at all what the nature of those posts were, nor your intentions for splitting yourself. Was also flashing on the fact that "Really"--whose posts always seem to me to be belittling, absurd, negative or pejorative (look it up brain_cloud, )--was being named in the same sentence about dual-identities.

Hi plr66
Great post. Now be prepared to be called paranoid, shameful, suspicious, just an opinion, be nitpicked, diverted, minimised, vilified etc. But will your main concerns be adequately and truthfully deal with - I doubt it. Mars

Mars, I am sorry your experiences here have left you so bitter. I do not share those feelings, but simply felt a little shaken off center to think that I might not be able to trust folks who I have learned to trust here. And I did not know which name jnk was using, nor do I still know who "Really" is, despite suspicions.

NotMuffy,I just went through all of your posts to date and there is no evidence of rudeness or any form of bullying and for that I agree that there are no instances. I also see why you created this alter ego and your use proves that done properly there should be no problems.
Taz

Taz, I admire your response to NotMuffy. And I would again say that my post was directed to suddenly realizing that folks who appear to be genuine and consistently trustworthy over years here, suddenly became questionable when someone as straightforward as jnk was brought up as having a covert identity. Muffy/NotMuffy has not been ambiguous to most of us. Off the wall (...or off the pan), but not ambiguous!
To be continued...

[brain_cloud]

bc:
> The notion that one insults only when one cannot rationally debate
> is about the most shopworn cliche imaginable, and fails to do
> any kind of justice to the complexities of human interaction.

OK, let's discuss "human interaction". So your point is that there are those who just love to insult other people. They actually _prefer_ to insult people than to discuss an issue in a civil way. Anyone with behavior like that is pretty screwed up.

My point is that circumstances arise in which the most appropriate response can be a punch in the nose, or a rude noise, or ridicule. Or certainly in which it is an appropriate response.

... Note that no one has responded to my original question.

I visit multiple forums, lots of them actually, and _not a single one of them_ that I visit, except this one, has only one category. Why is that?

When you are one and the others are many, there should be a rational, easily described, apparent reason why that is so.

I'll venture the simple hypothesis that you are drawn to controlled environments, and tend to frequent them.