OT: HE's a sick man, not a man of God.

[DreamStalker]

DreamStalker, I tend to agree that "government is necessary to protect individual rights from corporate greed and chaos in general".

On the other hand I do NOT believe that government (Congress) has the right or responsibility to protect me from myself.

I did not say protection from yourself. I said protection from corporate greed and chaos in general.

Corporate greed meaning ... large international corporations that are for all practical purposes monopolies, olygopolies, too-big-to-fail entities that have the same legal rights as real human indiviuals but not the same conscience/moral obligations or responsibility to a civilized society as real human indiviuals.

Chaos in general meaning ... anarchy.

I fully support not just the US Constitution, but the more important BIll of Rights contained within it. So I don't understand where you got the idea that I want "government (Congress) to protect us from ourselves".

[Autopapdude]

Okay, as a previous poster noted, just the titled led me to believe this post would be full of arguments. I'll just stick to the Off Topic Topic "He's a sick man, not a man of God".

I am a Christian. I believe his stance is wrong and does not represent my faith. I offer the following biblical "criticism" (meaning an analysis of his statements versus what is written in the Bible). If we look at biblical references we find the following attributes that you should find in someone who tries to live a life that is transformed by their faith in Christ.

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness ..."
Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ..."
1 Corinthians 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, ..."
Colossians 3:12 "So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; ..."

Is it little wonder people claim Christians can be hypocritical? We find those statements of how a faithful person should live, yet find someone like Pat Robertson exploiting the grief and misery of others. How can we not find this hypocritical?

I do. It does not represent my faith. Nor does it represent the faith of most people who try to follow the teachings of Christ.

But this is no different than those radical Muslims who believe it is acceptable to kill others. I know from both my own reading and long discussions with others that this is not acceptable under Islam. Still people distort the teachings of their faith for their own purposes.

Another posted posited that "religion" itself is bad. Rather, I offer another thought. It is what some people do with religion (any faith) that is wrong. Many people try to live by their faith and thus make the world a better place. That is what we should all try to do.

So, we should hold folks such as Pat Robertson accountable. We can compare his action to his faith statement. If they don't connect, it does not mean the faith statement is wrong. Rather it means he does not follow his faith. And that is offensive to everyone. Hate is hate, regardless of how we dress it up.

John, you put it extremely eloquently. Christianity is supposed to be love, and compassion, and forgiveness. Roebetson, and others who subvert the intent of being a Christian must be held accountable, much as extremist AL Queda Muslims are being held accountable. Mr. Pat "700" Robertson is all too popular here in the "Bible Belt," and he does have a large audience. I personally know folks who send him money, and hang on his every word. Therefore, he can't just be dismissed as a random lunatic, but must be held to the same standard to which he preaches. Those of us who are mainstream Christian are tainted by the likes of his hatred and extreme bigotry.

[WearyOne]

Okay, as a previous poster noted, just the titled led me to believe this post would be full of arguments. I'll just stick to the Off Topic Topic "He's a sick man, not a man of God".

I am a Christian. I believe his stance is wrong and does not represent my faith. I offer the following biblical "criticism" (meaning an analysis of his statements versus what is written in the Bible). If we look at biblical references we find the following attributes that you should find in someone who tries to live a life that is transformed by their faith in Christ.

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness ..."
Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ..."
1 Corinthians 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, ..."
Colossians 3:12 "So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; ..."

Is it little wonder people claim Christians can be hypocritical?...Another posted posited that "religion" itself is bad. Rather, I offer another thought. It is what some people do with religion (any faith) that is wrong. Many people try to live by their faith and thus make the world a better place. That is what we should all try to do.

So, we should hold folks such as Pat Robertson accountable. We can compare his action to his faith statement. If they don't connect, it does not mean the faith statement is wrong. Rather it means he does not follow his faith...

Thank you posting this; very well said. I will just add one thing---Due to the fact that we're all flawed, make mistakes (sometimes BIG ones), etc., we need to look at the Person who is head of Christianity rather than just Christians to determine what Christianity really is---meaning God and Jesus. Looking at people as the only source of what Christianity is will eventually knock you flat.

And before anyone thinks I might be using this comment to justify Robertson's comments, believe me I'm not. I believe he was 100% wrong to say what he did. I'm just saying people shouldn't let the negative actions and words of him, or anyone else, shape their beliefs about Christianity---read a Bible instead--because as much as Christians try to follow Christ, we're sorely imperfect.

Pam

[Autopapdude]

Agree strongly, Weary. I do not find Pat Robertson to be representative of our Lord and Savior one little bit. Nor do I condemn Christianity in any way for Mr. Robertson's sick, twisted beliefs.

[roster]

Churches do a lot of good ... some of them.
They help the poor and the sick etc. etc.

The problem is the religions.

If you could have churches without religions you would have a winner.

I like to get back to the root of the problem, so going one step further back you could say, "If you could have churches without people you would have a winner."

At my church we are taught, and many of us believe, that we are a group of broken sinners coming together to love and help each other grow away from sin and love and help the world do the same.

In this discussion I find it easy to condemn the statements of Robertson. What is difficult for me is to refrain from taking the position of arrogance and smug superiority, looking down on Robertson as the Pharisee in Luke looked down on the tax collector. I am warned not to do this.

Luke 18:9-14

[9] To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [10] "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

[13] "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

[14] "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

That is a prayer written for me: "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
'

[Babette]

Warning, flippant remark to follow.....

My Personal Goddess has reserved a Special Hell for the Pat Robertsons of the world. I sleep easy at night knowing he will Get His Just Desserts.

Sorry, back to your regular discussion.
B.

[DreamStalker]

Hold on just one more minute ... another flippant remark to follow ...

For me, religion is a no-brainer. Interpret as you wish.

Ok, now back to your regular discussion.

[Autopapdude]

hat is difficult for me is to refrain from taking the position of arrogance and smug superiority, looking down on Robertson as the Pharisee in Luke looked down on the tax collector. I am warned not to do this.

Flippant remark--you talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Case in point is your selfishness, worrying about tax consequences and financial aspects of yourself only. Same here--you exonerate Robertson, and do nothing to help the situation. See, this is why some folks get a bad notion of Christianity.

[kteague]

I don't see Robertson's remarks as being politcal, social, racial, malicious, or anything that deep. Just the ramblings of one who believes he really has some profound spiritual insight. The more I think about, it makes me sadder rather than madder. He may be doing the best he can with what he's got to work with. What an embarassing way to get enlightened. I wish I could read the mind of his co-host during that exchange.

[Slinky]

Whoa, DreamStalker. I didn't say or imply that you said anything about government protecting me from myself. That is just something that always rankles me - government insisting on trying to enact legislation protecting me from myself.

[DreamStalker]

Whoa, DreamStalker. I didn't say or imply that you said anything about government protecting me from myself. That is just something that always rankles me - government insisting on trying to enact legislation protecting me from myself.

Oh you mean "congress" enacting legislation protecting you from yourself right?

[Slinky]

Right on, DreamStalker.

I see good ole Lush Rimbaugh just had to jump in and put his spin on the Haitian disaster. What an obnoxious chump!!!

[DreamStalker]

Right on, DreamStalker.

I see good ole Lush Rimbaugh just had to jump in and put his spin on the Haitian disaster. What an obnoxious chump!!!

Comes with the territory I suppose ... he needs to just retire or somthing.

[TWW]

I can't help wondering how this crew (CPAP-talkers) would have reacted to Jonah, Joel, Amos, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, and Jeremiah. My guess is, about the same.

So, I took the time to look at the original clip, as opposed to the hatchet jobs by NBC, CBS, et al. You know, the one in which Robertson painted these people as victims of the behavior of their ancestors, and emphasized the need to send real, tangible aid to the people of Haiti.

You guys didn't see that one? Oh. What a surprise.

[WearyOne]

I can't help wondering how this crew (CPAP-talkers) would have reacted to Jonah, Joel, Amos, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, and Jeremiah. My guess is, about the same.

So, I took the time to look at the original clip, as opposed to the hatchet jobs by NBC, CBS, et al. You know, the one in which Robertson painted these people as victims of the behavior of their ancestors, and emphasized the need to send real, tangible aid to the people of Haiti.

You guys didn't see that one? Oh. What a surprise.

NBC, CBS, etal, rarely give the whole story on anything, especially when it's from a conservative or Christian person, so I, too, listened to original clip. I don't hate Robertson, in fact, I think his organization does a lot of good. BUT don't you think that his comments regarding pacts with the devil, etc. should not have been said considering all the horrible, horrible death and destruction Haiti has suffered?