Sleep Debt

sbr3500 · Post by **sbr3500** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:45 am

Hello Everyone.

I had a follow up meeting with my sleep doctor. It has been 1 month since I started CPAP therapy. I feel better, but like many of us, I have no idea what normal should feel like. I need to get back on an exercise schedule which I haven't done yet. No real excuse, simply have not started. I know exercise has a lot to do with it.

I asked my doctor how long the '"sleep debt" period can take to pay back. His response was "only a few days." I have heard people say it could be months until you feel "normal". I was distressed by his answer and I am curious how people feel over time and how their doctors answered the same question. I was sort of hoping I would continue to feel better over time due to the sleep debt factor … thoughts?

I hope everyone is doing well.

-Steve

tlc95066 · Post by **tlc95066** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:55 am

Hi Steve,

I don't know what the technical answer is to your question. However, from my experience it took no less than 4 months for me to begin feeling better. i think that it truly depends upon how quickly you become acustom to your new "bed partner" and how much sleep you are actually getting.

For me, I still had regular headaches (migraine and regular) for at least 4 months. I was still taking naps during that time too. It has now been 6 months (give or take) since I started on APAP and I feel like I am now getting good sleep. I rarely have headaches anymore and I have been feeling like exercising regularly.

This summer we were in Italy for 2 weeks, I could never have kept up the grueling pace we kept with out my APAP.

I hope you start to feel "normal" soon. I know it is hard to be patient.... I am not very good that, especailly when I don't feel good.

Best,
Teri

WAFlowers · Post by **WAFlowers** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:16 pm

"A few days" he says. Ha ha ha ha! What a quack!

If your sleep debt was only of a week or two duration, I'd believe it.

My doctor told me to expect 3-4 months ... if I was 100% compliant and managed to get 8 hours or more of sleep a night!!! I'm succeeding with being compliant, but having to get up with my son at 5:30 each weekday morning (he catches a school bus at 6:23, and I make coffee for him and walk him to the bus stop) is making it tough to get the required sleep .

sbr3500 · Post by **sbr3500** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:23 pm

Thank goodness. Conceptually the "only a few days" thing simply made no sense.

I have been 100% compliant and feel better in many aspects ... but I know if this is as good as it gets I must have something else wrong going on ... I am only 31 and remember feeling real good as recently as 5-10 years ago. My wife and I have been married for 3 years (together off and on for 7 before that) and she claims it's the last 5 years or so when the OSA started ... or at least she noticed it ... which is about the same time I started feeling "Bad" if that makes sense. I have only gained 15 lbs over the last 5 years (for whatever that is worth).

I was sorting of hoping I am only 25% there as far as my recover goes from sleep debt … assuming it's a 4 month catch up period.

ProfessorSleep · Post by **ProfessorSleep** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:26 pm

Stanford has been studying sleep debt for years. The short of it all was stated well in a study of college student sleep patterns : "Each of us has a specific daily sleep requirement. The average sleep requirement for college students is well over eight hours, and the majority of students would fall within the range of this value plus or minus one hour. If this amount is not obtained, a sleep debt is created. All lost sleep accumulates progressively as a larger and larger sleep indebtedness. Furthermore, your sleep debt does not go away or spontaneously decrease. The only way to reduce your individual sleep debt is by obtaining extra sleep over and above your daily requirement."

Therefore, your nightly sleep goes to provide what you need on a normal, daily basis. Sleep debt might be considered as being paid back by any additional sleep above the daily requirement. Some of us may be used to only an hour or so sleep every night (mine was estimated to be equivalent to 90 minutes). I can maintain that level of functioning by only getting 2 hours of sleep, and even feel a little better! Gee - don't tell my boss.....

Of course that amount isn't normal, and it depends on sleep quality, also. But in general, if our daily requirement is 7-8 and we only continue to get that much, we will continue to pay off the sleep debt only in small increments. So, I figure most of us will be out of debt in, oh, well, 20 years or so? (Sleep debt, that is.) But the idea that any of this could be made up any time soon? For certain we are talking months at minimum, depending on the severity and the quality of the current sleep.

Good luck to you!

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:38 pm

I am surprised that any doctor would give an answer like that for anything. Everyone is different and thereby reacts differently to just about everything. It's like asking how long it will take until you feel better after the flu. It could be five days or five weeks, depending on the circumstances. To say "A few days" in response to a question like you asked is not only ridiculous, but either uneducated or irresponsible.

Rest assured, there is no set time for something like that. I am not a doctor and I think I can safely answer that it is not "a few days" as a hard and fast rule, or even in most people. It would have me rethinking about just how good this doctor you're going to really is. Either he is too busy to take the time to have a caring and honest discussion with you about your concerns, he's uneducated in this area, or he's an idiot.

My advice? Just be as compliant as you possibly can and keep your attitude as positive as it can be. The therapy works all in good time. And don't compare yourself to what you read on this site that others have experienced. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, so it will take you as long as your body needs to start to feel better. Best of luck.

sbr3500 · Post by **sbr3500** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:15 pm

Alright.

I figured, someone running a sleep lab at a hospital would know what they are doing.

I was shocked at how he said only a "few days" with such strong conviction.

Any know my doctor ???

But, the bottom line is that I have been 100% compliant ... feel better ... just want to feel a lot better and was under the assumption that sleep debt takes a while to pay off.

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:47 pm

Well, it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing. Like I said, maybe he just can't take the time out of his busy schedule to give you a real answer or maybe he just doesn't care. I can't imagine how you can run a sleep clinic if you don't know the answer to something like that and give a patient who is looking for help and information that type of response.

Who knows, maybe he was having a bad day. Doesn't excuse him for not doing right by you. Maybe you should ask him that question again and see if he responds in the same way. I would be really interested to hear what he says the next time. If it's the same answer, I would call him on it and ask how he could generalize everyone and declare a definitive time period like that, such as a few days. If it's different, you could remind him of his prior response or just let it go knowing that he knows better but, for some reason, chose not to take the time to answer you correctly the first time.

Just feel better, please...that's the most important thing.

JimH · Post by **JimH** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:00 pm

WAFlowers,

How old is your son that you are making coffee for him and walking him to the school bus?? Sorry not picking on you, but it made stop and think for a minute and I laughed cause I pictured my 6 year old and then I pictured my wife killing me for giving him coffee.

Ms Piggy · Post by **Ms Piggy** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:53 pm

My Doc wasn't referring only to sleep debt when he said it would be 6 mths before I would really feel better. Soo, got 3 to go then no excuse for forgetting things etc. etc.

Colorado Jan · Post by **Colorado Jan** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:45 pm

am surprised that any doctor would give an answer like that for anything. Everyone is different and thereby reacts differently to just about everything. It's like asking how long it will take until you feel better after the flu. It could be five days or five weeks, depending on the circumstances. To say "A few days" in response to a question like you asked is not only ridiculous, but either uneducated or irresponsible

At my sleep study, it started with a video you were required to watch. That video specifically said..."a few days".

Don't you just wish you could make them walk in our shoes for a few months! Nooooo, how about YEARS. Geez loueez, what a bunch of idiots.

Jan in Colorado.

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:08 am

Don't you just wish you could make them walk in our shoes for a few months! Nooooo, how about YEARS. Geez loueez, what a bunch of idiots.

Jan,

Maybe some of them have undiagnosed OSA and aren't thinking too well?

WAFlowers · Post by **WAFlowers** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:15 am

JimH wrote:How old is your son that you are making coffee for him and walking him to the school bus?? Sorry not picking on you, but it made stop and think for a minute and I laughed cause I pictured my 6 year old and then I pictured my wife killing me for giving him coffee.

He's 15, only a 1/2" shorter than I am and weighs more (we're working on that).

He's had his own coffee mug since he was 3, around the same age I started drinking it. Of course, at that age he had more milk than coffee.

Sleepless on LI · Post by **Sleepless on LI** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:21 am

He's 15, only a 1/2" shorter than I am and weighs more (we're working on that).

Which is conclusive evidence that drinking coffee doesn't stunt your growth.

WAFlowers · Post by **WAFlowers** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:27 am

Sleepless on LI wrote:Which is conclusive evidence that drinking coffee doesn't stunt your growth.

Absolutely! He's still growing and if foot size is any indication of height (I've heard it correlates well) then he should top 6' by the time he's done.

Not too surprising though; my father is 6'2" and my father-in-law was 6' tall. I stopped at 5'10" but I got some "short genes" from my mother's side of the family.