O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by BlackSpinner » Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:56 am

Putting the government in charge of every aspect of my life - and make no mistake, that IS what we're talking about here - has to be stopped at any and all cost.
Why? People don't seem to be doing a great job of it by themselves, the insurance companies don't seem to be doing a great job of it - unless the only thing your interseted in is their profits. It is what government exists for - to create the safety nets for people who fall of the edge. Since it is a government you chose and the people in it are your people the fact that you don't believe they are capable of running a simple thing like a health care program doesn't say much for the people YOU have put in charge of things like the American army. These same people are the worlds leaders, control nuclear bombs and missiles, control a lot of the funding for various problem areas of the world, the same people that try to tell us how to run
OUR
countries, that try to force their culture and values on us. And you don't think they can manage something that Russian peasants, European decadents and Canadian farmers did starting over 100 years ago?
These people who have world power?
These people you put into that power?
You did vote didn't you?
If you feel that strongly what were you doing during the campaigns? How many of you donated time or money to your cause?
People get the government they deserve - however in this case we are talking about a world power, a government with lots of influence elsewhere.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:46 am

KSMike wrote:I think you'd have a very hard time finding anyone who doesn't believe serious reforms aren't needed or desirable. But there's a big difference between the kinds of reforms that would fix the major problems without infringing on the basic liberties we enjoy in America, and the direction the current U.S. administration would like us to follow. Being against Obamacare (in any of it's current forms) does not necessarily mean that one is for the continuation of the current system.

Putting the government in charge of every aspect of my life - and make no mistake, that IS what we're talking about here - has to be stopped at any and all cost.
Very well said, KS MIke!

To Blackspinner:

1. I did vote, but I didn't vote for the current federal administration. (And please don't jump to any conclusion about who I did vote for.) So I did not help put the current federal government officials in office.
2. As long as I've been alive, politicians have had a way of changing and backstepping out of campaign "promises."
3. Running a national healthcare program is far from simple. If it was so simple, "even the government can do it," then it wouldn't be in the mess it is today.
4. A person (or group, or organization, or government) can be great at running or being in charge of some thing, but that doesn't make them good (efficient, the best way) at running everything.
5. I did volunteer.

Again, make no mistake, I did not put this guy in office.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:40 am

I didn't put this guy in office either ... but I'm not afraid the world is going to come to an end either. (well maybe in 2012 but that is a different issue than who is US president).

Image

Maybe if we had bank and Wall Street CEOs running the country, that would be the most efficient and best way to run a country .... oh wait a minute, they already are running the country.

Image
President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:36 am

DreamStalker wrote:I didn't put this guy in office either ... but I'm not afraid the world is going to come to an end either.

As I keep repeating, I also am not afraid the world is going to end if this healtcare bill passes! My taxes will go up, health care in this country will get worse, the country will continue its spiral into uncontrolled worsening debt, but my life will go on, and go on faithfully. This isn't a the-sky-is-falling statement; it's fact. These issues are happening now, but will worsen with government-controlled healthcare.

I still don't understand why some folks can't understand that being concerned about an issue, or not liking something, or passionately being against something means being afraid. Maybe you weren't directing this at me, but since I'm the one that mentioned I didn't put the guy in office, I assumed you were.

And honestly, although fear is not something I'm feeling, I sure don't blame people who are afraid for being afraid.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:49 am

DreamStalker wrote:
The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
Although the grip is tightening, currently this is incorrect. One important one to me and many others is the religious freedom that we fortunately still have. How we educate our kids is another (public school, private school, Christian school, homeschool, etc.). And there are many other ways the government is not already in charge in my life---at least not yet!

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:58 am

WearyOne wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
This is incorrect. One important one to me and many others is the religious freedom that we fortunately still have. How we educate our kids is another (public school, private school, Christian school, homeschool, etc.). And there are many other ways the government is not already in charge in my life---at least not yet!

Pam

Funny you should mention that.

I was called on to serve in jury duty last month. There was a check point into the courthouse where I was compelled to remove my shoes, belt, and everything out of my pockets (remember, I was invited there to serve). Anyway, after the judge came in (for which we were forced to rise and stand) he said "and now let us pledge allegiance to the flag (which contained the word God in it). I modified that part of the pledge for myself and the sky didn't fall. But then he said "Now let us pray with a moment of silence" ... that was unconstitutional I think but what do I know ... I was just serving my country.
President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:03 pm

DreamStalker wrote:
WearyOne wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
This is incorrect. One important one to me and many others is the religious freedom that we fortunately still have. How we educate our kids is another (public school, private school, Christian school, homeschool, etc.). And there are many other ways the government is not already in charge in my life---at least not yet!

Funny you should mention that.

I was called on to serve in jury duty last month. There was a check point into the courthouse where I was compelled to remove my shoes, belt, and everything out of my pockets (remember, I was invited there to serve). Anyway, after the judge came in (for which we were forced to rise and stand) he said "and now let us pledge allegiance to the flag (which contained the word God in it). I modified that part of the pledge for myself and the sky didn't fall. But then he said "Now let us pray with a moment of silence" ... that was unconstitutional I think but what do I know ... I was just serving my country.
You were invited, but was it really you?!? Could be your twin out to shoot up the courthouse, who knows? (Or maybe that other guy running around the forums right now that needs the chill pill you posted for him in another thread! )

The silence? Glad it's there. It lets me pray, and you not to, if that's your choice. No one's forcing you to pray, and no one's saying I can't. That's freedom.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:15 pm

WearyOne wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
WearyOne wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
This is incorrect. One important one to me and many others is the religious freedom that we fortunately still have. How we educate our kids is another (public school, private school, Christian school, homeschool, etc.). And there are many other ways the government is not already in charge in my life---at least not yet!

Pam

Funny you should mention that.

I was called on to serve in jury duty last month. There was a check point into the courthouse where I was compelled to remove my shoes, belt, and everything out of my pockets (remember, I was invited there to serve). Anyway, after the judge came in (for which we were forced to rise and stand) he said "and now let us pledge allegiance to the flag (which contained the word God in it). I modified that part of the pledge for myself and the sky didn't fall. But then he said "Now let us pray with a moment of silence" ... that was unconstitutional I think but what do I know ... I was just serving my country.
You were invited, but was it really you?!? Could be your twin out to shoot up the courthouse, who knows? (Or maybe that other guy running around the forums right now that needs the chill pill you posted for him in another thread! )

The silence? Glad it's there. It lets me pray, and you not to, if that's your choice. No one's forcing you to pray, and no one's saying I can't. That's freedom.

Pam
Yes I was invited ... and it was really me under threat of a fine or jail incarceration if I did not show up. Yes I did have the freedom not to pray but nonetheless it was my time being wasted since people can pray on their own time in their own church or whatever.

My point is that the government is in charge of your life ... and we are and have been practicing socialism ... they monitor your every move in public with video cameras, your every purchase with credit/debit transactions, what you read, what you post on the internet, what you talk about on the phone, and yes where and how you teach your children ... just that many people haven't realized that yet and so they try and scare their fellow citizens into thinking that is the way of the future when that future is already here.
President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by apnez » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:42 pm

KSMike wrote:...Putting the government in charge of every aspect of my life - and make no mistake, that IS what we're talking about here - has to be stopped at any and all cost.
Something is quite sure to me as I have worked as a health consultant in many countries. The rest of the great occidental and developed societies are under of a public, government managed health system, (with local variances related to cultural and historic factors) and none of the people living in theses countries have their individual lives controlled by their government, surely not more than it is already the case in USA who pretend to be freedom land! I don't see why that would ONLY happen in USA and be worst than it is already now! And don't forget that the main effect of Obama's proposal will be on those 46 millions of Americans who have NO COVERAGE now. I don't see where the Evil is in that proposal?

But what I see here and have seen elsewhere in the world where private insurance companies are involved in health care delivery IS far from being a desirable solution : its red tape, huge profits and poor service. Something also sure is that those private insurance companies already know more on YOUR individual life that will probably know the Government with that bill. USA health system is extremely costly and inefficient and YOU already pay every day for that terrible mess. Believe it or not USA are on the 24th rank in the world (WHO) just after... Cuba. Will you stay jammed in that mess for the eternity because someone somewhere in Alaska believes and tells you that this proposal was written by Evil? If so, good luck!

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by KSMike » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:46 pm

DreamStalker wrote:
My point is that the government is in charge of your life ... and we are and have been practicing socialism ... they monitor your every move in public with video cameras, your every purchase with credit/debit transactions, what you read, what you post on the internet, what you talk about on the phone, and yes where and how you teach your children ... just that many people haven't realized that yet and so they try and scare their fellow citizens into thinking that is the way of the future when that future is already here.
So we should just give up and throw in the towel - is that your point? Let them do whatever they want, and just shut up and let it happen, knowing that the current direction will do more to destroy liberty than everything else that's ever been done? Uh, no.
DreamStalker wrote: The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
No, it isn't. I've read that act. There are things about it I object to, but it doesn't even begin to have the direct effect on the general population that Obamacare would have. Note, Bush I and II both did things that infuriated me. But there is nothing that has ever been done in history that will do as much to destroy this country as we know it, as this.
DreamStalker wrote: Please list one country that you would be willing to live in where the citizens do not pay taxes ... well?
Maybe I missed something. Did someone suggest that we shouldn't be paying taxes?
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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:48 pm

DreamStalker wrote:

Yes I was invited ... under threat of a fine or jail incarceration if I did not show up. Yes I did have the freedom not to pray but nonetheless it was my time being wasted since people can pray on their own time in their own church or whatever.

My point is that the government is in charge of your life ... and we are and have been practicing socialism ... they monitor your every move in public with video cameras, your every purchase with credit/debit transactions, what your read, what you post on the internet, what you talk about on the phone, and yes where and how you teach your children ... just that many people haven't realized that yet and so they try and scare their fellow citizens into thinking that is the way of the future when that future is already here.
Yes, I'm sure that little 30 seconds or whatever of silence took a huge chunk out of your day!

You sound a little paranoid to me, Dreamstalker!

Monitoring what I'm doing isn't great, but it is not the same thing as telling me what I can and cannot do. Having standards for education, for example (if that's what you're implying by saying the government tells me where and how I can teach my children), isn't the same as controlling EVERYTHING about the education. I can currently CHOOSE to home school my child. I can currently CHOOSE from a long list of curriculum to use for that--including Christian-based curriculum--or make up my own. The state and local government controls it in the sense that they have to approve it and the child has to pass a test at the end of each year in order to continue with home school. But I still currently have a lot of say in the matter, at least in Virginia. Much of this is state-based, and Virginia is pretty open in this area---I'd like to keep it that way for future generations, and make sure more government doesn't start encroaching in educating my child (or rather other people's children since mine are grown).

If you already believe the government has total control over our lives--which is what it sounds like to me in your posts--then I can certainly understand your confusion over why many of us have a problem with government-controlled healthcare. EDIT: I refuse to throw in the towel and say, "Oh no, the sky has fallen, there's no hope, they've got me." I do choose to stand up for or against what I believe is wrong, won't work, or gives the government more control than they already have. Yes, I do believe the government controls PART of our lives, but they don't control it all. Maybe some folks don't care what the government controls or how much, they figure what difference does it make. I care.

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by WearyOne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:57 pm

apnez wrote: And don't forget that the main effect of Obama's proposal will be on those 46 millions of Americans who have NO COVERAGE now.
Yes, this article was by a physician's group, but I just don't have time right now to look for my other articles regarding this myth. (The areas in bold are my emphasis.)

Myth 11. There are 46 million or more Americans without “health care.”
July 24th, 2009

No one, to our knowledge, has actually come up with an estimate of the number of residents in America, legal or illegal, who are denied life-saving medical care—if indeed there are any. Even accusations of violating EMTALA—the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, which requires screening and stabilization of any patient presenting to an emergency room—are apparently rare.

The 46 million are the “uninsured.” They lack “coverage,” not care.

The Institute of Medicine and the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured have published widely cited 2002 reports concluding that uninsured people have worse health than insured people. The IOM guesstimates that 18,000 people a year die for lack of insurance—an impressive sound bite that “has no factual basis,” writes Greg Scandlen.

In the actual report, the number 18,000 occurs only once, in Appendix D, with a description of the convoluted method for calculating it—extrapolating from one questionable estimate from one study.

Scandlen observes that neither IOM nor Kaiser did any original research, but simply compiled previous studies. These identify a correlation between lack of insurance and poor health, but cannot determine whether one is caused by the other, or both are caused by some other factor.

In the U.S. 37% of people with below-average income reported that they were in fair or poor health, while only 9% of people with above-average income said the same. A similar disparity is seen in the UK, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia, despite their “universal coverage.”

People in lower income groups are more likely to be uninsured, but only 18 of the 164 separate studies made any effort to control for income. The Medicaid population, being low income and well-insured, could serve as a control group. In 61% of the 31 studies that identify three populations (privately insured, uninsured, and Medicaid), Medicaid recipients appeared to do as badly or worse than the uninsured in receiving medical services or maintaining good health. In many cases, they have worse outcomes than the uninsured. This is consistent with other information suggesting that income is a much better predictor of health than is insurance status (ibid.).

Smoking and education level were other confounding variables that the IOM failed to consider (David Hogberg, American Spectator 9/22/09).

While the increasing number of uninsured is presented as a crisis, the proportion of Americans without health coverage has changed little in the past decade. The increase in number is owing to immigration and population growth, writes Devon Herrick.

In 2006, 15.5% of Americans were uninsured, compared with 16.2% in 1997.

Of the claimed 46 million uninsured, 12.6 million (27%) are immigrants, either legal or illegal. Up to 14 million (30%) are eligible for government insurance, but haven’t bothered to enroll. They can sign up the instant they need medical attention.

The percentage of low-income people (<$25,000/yr) without insurance actually decreased 24% over the past 10 years. The highest rate of increase in uninsured status, 90%, was in families with incomes over $75,000, who presumably could have bought insurance if they considered it worth the price.

Insurance “coverage” is not the same thing as medical care. It is not necessarily the best way to pay for medical care—although it probably is the most expensive. And there is no actual evidence, only inference from uncontrolled observational studies, that increasing the level of insurance coverage improves health outcomes. If expanding coverage means restricting care, the opposite could occur.

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/00369

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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by KSMike » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:38 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:
Putting the government in charge of every aspect of my life - and make no mistake, that IS what we're talking about here - has to be stopped at any and all cost.
Why? People don't seem to be doing a great job of it by themselves, the insurance companies don't seem to be doing a great job of it - unless the only thing your interseted in is their profits.
Did you read what I wrote? I said the current system needs major reform. I'm simply saying that the one and only way the system could be worse would be to put the government in charge of it.
BlackSpinner wrote:You did vote didn't you?
I haven't missed an election, at any level from school board up, since I turned 18, nearly 30 years ago.
BlackSpinner wrote: If you feel that strongly what were you doing during the campaigns? How many of you donated time or money to your cause?
I did. With a job that has turned into hell on earth and a child with a severe health problem, I did everything I could to keep this guy from being elected.
BlackSpinner wrote: People get the government they deserve...
I'll say this for BO: he hasn't disappointed me. I knew exactly what we'd get with him, and he has delivered.
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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by KSMike » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:48 pm

DreamStalker wrote:Maybe if we had bank and Wall Street CEOs running the country, that would be the most efficient and best way to run a country .... oh wait a minute, they already are running the country.
Last I heard, Obama was firing the executives of non-government corporations and appointing "czars" (a position that isn't specified by the Constitution) to "approve or adjust" the pay of others. To the extent that financial companies are "running the country," this IS a country that runs on capitalism. if you are so against that, there are plenty of other places to live.
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Re: O.T.: Will We Ever Have Health Police?

Post by DreamStalker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:16 pm

KSMike wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:
My point is that the government is in charge of your life ... and we are and have been practicing socialism ... they monitor your every move in public with video cameras, your every purchase with credit/debit transactions, what you read, what you post on the internet, what you talk about on the phone, and yes where and how you teach your children ... just that many people haven't realized that yet and so they try and scare their fellow citizens into thinking that is the way of the future when that future is already here.
So we should just give up and throw in the towel - is that your point?


That is not my point ... go back and read what my point was again, maybe the second time is a charm?
KSMike wrote:Let them do whatever they want, and just shut up and let it happen, knowing that the current direction will do more to destroy liberty than everything else that's ever been done? Uh, no.
But now that you have spun my previous point into something I made no reference to ... No. Don't let them do what ever they want. Go vote ... and not for a Dem and most definitely not for a GOP. Vote independent. Dems and GOPs are just two sides of the same coin in the pockets of the CEO's.

KSMike wrote:
DreamStalker wrote: The government is already in charge of every aspect of your life. Read the patriot act.
No, it isn't. I've read that act. There are things about it I object to, but it doesn't even begin to have the direct effect on the general population that Obamacare would have. Note, Bush I and II both did things that infuriated me. But there is nothing that has ever been done in history that will do as much to destroy this country as we know it, as this.
And how exactly will the sky fall ... I mean the country be destroyed?
KSMike wrote: Maybe I missed something. Did someone suggest that we shouldn't be paying taxes?
Yes. You missed a lot. Go back and read the previous posts on this thread with all the whinning and complaining about taxes.
KSMike wrote:
DreamStalker wrote:Maybe if we had bank and Wall Street CEOs running the country, that would be the most efficient and best way to run a country .... oh wait a minute, they already are running the country.
Last I heard, Obama was firing the executives of non-government corporations and appointing "czars" (a position that isn't specified by the Constitution) to "approve or adjust" the pay of others. To the extent that financial companies are "running the country," this IS a country that runs on capitalism. if you are so against that, there are plenty of other places to live.
Yep. and he has hired other CEOs ... one of them to give away the US treasury of all things ... you have heard of TARP and all the other bailouts right? ... or do you only hear that Obama is making the sky fall? I'm not against capitalism ... I'm against unregulated greedy international corporations. I'm all for capitalism when it is a level playing field that encourages a real unsubsidized free market of ideas, goods, and services. I'm against corporate buyouts that stomp competition, corporate bailouts, corporate tax shelters, corporate subsidies, corporate legislation in our congress that forgot who we the people are.

So as my friend rooster would say ... quit making stuff up and attributing it to me you you you infidel.
President-pretender, J. Biden, said "the DNC has built the largest voter fraud organization in US history". Too bad they didn’t build the smartest voter fraud organization and got caught.