Losing weight really is the best long term solution

[jdm2857]

In order for evolution to be at work, the narrower jaw would have to give those possessing it a selective advantage over those without it. Hard to imagine what that is.

And besides, natural selection really doesn't apply to humans anymore. It is mostly overridden by modern medicine, the legal system, and basic morality.

[roster]

is that about 200 years ago man developed methods for milling wheat very finely. This allowed intake of high carbs with very little chewing.

Only in certain select societies, not in general humanity and 200 years is a minor blip.

Ah, but the evolutionists taught me that things often happened rapidly in blips.

I'm just looking for evidence and hypotheses related to one doctor's observation that the narrowing of the human jaw over the last 200 years correlates to the development of mills for finely grinding grains. There may be nothing to it, but the doc has an excellent reputation for accuracy in his statements.

[roster]

BTW, there is no claim that evolution has caused the narrowing of the jaw, just a claim that it has narrowed.

We are different from adults of similar age just 60 years ago. Most people can look at family photos from 60 years ago and see that people today are taller and heavier.

[Guest]

BTW, there is no claim that evolution has caused the narrowing of the jaw, just a claim that it has narrowed.

We are different from adults of similar age just 60 years ago. Most people can look at family photos from 60 years ago and see that people today are taller and heavier.

There is a big difference between getting taller and heavier due to better nutrition (increased height is due to the plasticity in "long" bone growth in the skeleton and weight increase in just packing on more pounds) and structural changes you're suggesting in the jaw. We see very similar changes in the past 10-15 years with the Hmong immigrants here in the Midwest responding to better nutrition (or at least more of it) .

[katherinefulmer]

Yes, we are taller and heavier. You can tell from pictures or old furniture, clothes and door frames.

Guest I would not say that the diet of man improved in the last 200 years. In fact you'll find plenty of evidence to dispute that fact. Diets were much more varied than they are now. The 'Western Diet' is mainly composed of corn, soy and wheat. Check out the ingredients on a loaf a bread in your kitchen cabinet. Should be three ingredients long right? yeast, water and flour. But look at all the stuff they've snuck in in the bast few decades. I'd say the Hmong immigrants in the Midwest might be bigger due to this western diet, but I'd be amazed if there aren't more instances of western diseases in that population as well. You'll find lots of data on that phenomenon as well, and if you'd like I'll refer you to some fascinating reads.

Our increase in size is most certainly been due to diet. And it follows that diet could most certainly affect the shape of the jaw. I have been looking for articles and so far have not been able to find any. Please post if you find them. I've also contacted some old professors so perhaps we'll get an answer yet!

The thing about genetic change is that it is often assumed the changes must necessarily be improvements. More and more it's coming into light that our diet HAS dramatically changed in the past 200 years and (frankly) in the past 50. When what's on the table is unlike anything that came before our ancestors of course it's likely there were a great number of changes to our bodies.

It's really fascinating to apply it to sleep apnea. I wonder if we're assuming too much if we think it's only a problem for 21st century man. Perhaps a thorough reading of Napoleon's diaries or a closer look at cave art will offer clues of earlier cases of OSA.

After all for CENTURIES husbands and wives slept in separate rooms, you don't think it might be due to SNORING?!

[roster]

.......... and structural changes you're suggesting in the jaw. ........

Here is the quote and the source is Dr. Steven Park.

What’s worse, it’s thought that due to a radical change in our diets (highly processed foods and refined sugars) over the past century, our jaws are getting narrower and we have more dental crowding. http://doctorstevenpark.com/when-exerci ... our-health

Other than a local ENT, I have not been able to find additional references and would appreciate if anyone has them.

[katherinefulmer]

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590 ... pology.htm Article from
Source: University of Illinois at Chicago.
Excerpt: A rural community in the Mammoth Cave region of central Kentucky was surveyed over a 25 year period as it made the transition to industry and mechanized farming. The diet at the outset was home-produced foods (especially dried pork and fried cornbread) which provided consistently stressful chewing. The transition was from this to a diet of purchased supermarket foods. This study was of special interest since diet changed but residence did not. Furthermore, these are people in the same society--it is not a cross-cultural study with its inherent problems of different genetic constitutions.

Arch breadth was smaller and significantly more variable in younger individuals. Bigonial breadth, measured from an area affected by the medial pterygoid and masseter muscle action was considerably smaller in the younger sample. This study tends to suggest that there is a genetic predisposition or susceptibility to be diverted from programmed oral growth pathway by environmental factors. Lack of function, therefore, led to a different phenotypic expression--one with more occlusal variation.

On a roll more to follow Rooster. I think we're on to something!

[freedomfries2]

Losing weight is indeed a great way to fight sleep apnea. Very hard though.

[roster]

Excellent Katherine. So if we all start eating fried cornbread and dried pork, you will be unemployed.

physical anthropologists who have compared pre-contact Eskimo lower jaws with living peoples today comment are the robustisity of the ancient peoples who used their teeth for many paramasticatory purposes such as softening animal skins.

I am going to logoff and go chew on the bear rug in my rec room for a few hours. Tomorrow morning I will check whether my AHI is down.

Have a good weekend,

[katherinefulmer]

Alright best of luck with that Let us know how it turns out. And don't you worry about us. If all of our friends conquer this we'll be very happy. (plus we can always start fighting the fried cornbread and dried pork industries once they grow too big and corrupted).

[Muse-Inc]

What’s worse, it’s thought that due to a radical change in our diets (highly processed foods and refined sugars) over the past century, our jaws are getting narrower and we have more dental crowding. http://doctorstevenpark.com/when-exerci ... our-health

Other than a local ENT, I have not been able to find additional references and would appreciate if anyone has them.

Y'all will find this interesting:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... short.html

If you root around you'll find more intriguing and controversial articles. Rooster I may mis-remember, but I believe that Price was the first to propose that as we 'became' more modern (using technology etc.), our jaws and dental arches narrowed. Oh, and read the info on Pottinger's cats...interesting stuff indeed!

PS these articles discuss ideas behind my decison to eat a lot of healthy saturated fat (butter from pasture-grazed cows, organic coconut oil). Shame I can't eat pasture-grazed meats now, I used to...just not on the menu given my unemployment.

[roster]

Losing weight is indeed a great way to fight sleep apnea.

Losing weight is a great thing for many people. But can you cite any information showing weight loss resolves sleep apnea? I have never seen it.

This study found even bariatric surgery patients who lost large amounts of weight still required treatment for sleep apnea: http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare ... ders/10548 .

[roster]

[..........
Y'all will find this interesting:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... short.html

.........

Yep Muse. Quite interesting. There are many good quotes in there, e.g.,

Modern nutrition researchers are showing renewed interest in the foodways of our ancestors, but myths about primitive diets abound. The first is easily dismissed-that traditional diets were largely vegetarian. Anthropological data confirm what Price found, namely that throughout the globe, all societies show a preference for animal foods and fats. Modern scientific literature does not support the claims made for vegetarian diets. ............

Another myth about primitive diets, and one that is harder to dispel, is that they were low in fat, particularly saturated animal fat.

So I guess we should burn every healthy eating book?

[Muse-Inc]

...So I guess we should burn every healthy eating book?

Well, speaking just for me...burn 'em all!!!

Keep the Atkins, Eades, Sears, and all paleo ones...but hey, I'm NOT biased or anything

[BlackSpinner]

Y'all will find this interesting:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional ... short.html

The guy is logically challenged and is comparing apples and oranges to whale blubber.

Another myth about primitive diets, and one that is harder to dispel, is that they were low in fat, particularly saturated animal fat.

The original research was done on temperate climate people and acknowledged the different requirements for different climates. Cold climates require more fat in your diet. Since most people live in well heated houses this fat is not required now.

The big problem is with white flour, over processed food which have had the nutrients stripped out. The jaw problems are due more to the lack of these nutrients, minerals and vitamins then the actual chewing done. For example my teeth and those of just about every child in the Netherlands born just post war is very bad. Our mothers didn't have the nutrients in their pre and pregnancy diets, not because they didn't chew well. In the last year before she got pregnant my mother was down to eating tulip bulbs.
White flour also has Gluten in it which a larger part of the population genetically has problems with, Celiac disease - which is much more common then believed which prevent digestion proper digestion. By over relying on wheat in our diets we cause digestive problems which means we can't absorb the nutrients we need from other source. After 10,000 years our bodies still haven't adapted to wheat gluten.

The other thing to remember is the amount of work the people did and the climate conditions in which they lived. If you are an Inuit living in Virginia doing a desk job, eating lots of whale blubber is not going to be healthy for you even if your ancestors did wonderful on that diet. You will not be hiking miles in -40 weather and thereby using up lots of energy. However eating dairy products and white flour will make sure you end up with diabetes. Ones diet has to be something that your ancestors did well by TAKING INTO ACCOUNT ONES CURRENT LIFESTYLE!!!
So for myself - lots of fish, some dairy, some whole wheat and rye, some small amounts of pork and lots of vegetables would be a good diet. All in small amounts because I have a desk job. Once I spent 2 weeks building a house without powertools in the country in October while sleeping in a tent- it rained or snowed every day, it felt bitterly cold, I ate more each day then I would normally eat in a week with lots of fats and by the end of the 2 weeks I had lost weight because my body was using every calorie to keep me warm and provide the energy needed to hammer and carry lumber.