OT, How the auto bailout works . . .

[hobbs]

[Slinky]

Lack of quality in today's American made cars (w/many parts manufactured in other countries) ???? You didn't buy an American made car in the 70's I take it!! Now THERE was lack of quality! We bought a brand new 65 Pontiac and never had to take it back to have so much as a screw tightened. THEN we bought a brand new 72 Chevy and a brand new 77 Ford - BOTH LEMONS!! At least Ford was much better to work w/than GM! We haven't bought a new car since.

I've been running an Oldsmobile Cutlass station wagon since 1980. An 84, a 90, a 93 and now a 96. All pre-owned. 2 of them on a 70 mile 500 box mail route. I put over 200,000 on the first 3. The best line of cars for the money GM made - and the idiots quit making the entire line!!!

But this country can NOT afford the job losses that would snowball to the parts suppliers, etc. American industry won WW II, it kept Britain alive until we entered the war. We can't afford to lose any more manufacturing capacity to foreign companies. What they COULD do is shave off about 10% of the upper echelons, restrict the top level to NO MORE than $1 million salary, no bonuses, no stock options until the loans are paid back in full and the companies turning a profit. See if they still need and want the bailout bad enough.

[Rivers]

When you said AUTO bailout, I naturally assumed that you meant how the APAP "bails you out" from your apneas........................

Sorry

[sleepie]

you know how you hear it---now this is how i hear it

1----they are asking for loans
2----they are to pay it back
3---we have done this before,,in the past
4---the banks won't lend---to them or there customers,or dealers
how the population hears it

1---why did you fly your corp. jet to ask for loan
2---why are you building cars no-one wants
3---come back with a plan we like,and we will look at it
4---you guys don't know what your doing
5----your come here with a tin cup and your hand out
6---next time drive here
7---we will tell you how to run your company
8----all of this done with a very disrespectful tone!!!!

i am ashamed of my lawmakers,an american company came to them for help,,because the lending institutions will not lend
we must ,,{the population} have fogotten we just shelled out 350 billion to banks,,,and i did not see 1,,,not1,,get treated this way,,as a matter of fact---did they question those banks to make sure they would lend the money out--i guess not....

who i ask, will make our military vehicles in the future---honda? toyota?--if so i hope we stay friends with them,,forever

also---banks produce nothing,,they lend,,,and there not doing that,,who don't know how to run a company??---maybe if they would lend to people who want to buy a new car,,then the auto makers would not have to beg these people for a loan--after all they did not screw up the economy---the banks did....

in the future the american auto industry should never forget how they were treated--what goes around comes around---maybe the next hummer should cost the gov.200,000---each--boy they would cry then!

and yes the american auto worker makes more than the others---and i say ,,good for them ,,thats an american company there working for----i hope never to see my congressmen ,,treat any one so undignified in the future----i am extremely disgusted in how they were treated,,if a bank treated me this way i would walk out---but they knew they had them over a barrel,,by the way--i drive used cars my whole life--all different brands,,but always american--i guess that's because thats where i live---just my thoughts---pat

ps next time you ask for a auto loan or home improvement loan---listen carefully if your bank asks ,how did you get hear?? a jet?

[tomjax]

At one time recently I owned a GM and a toyota.

Every time I took them to the dealership for service or repairs it was a study in contrasts.
The GM took a very haughty attitude with all their policies.
Toyota was entirely different- courteous, helpful- reasonable.

GM was a take it or leave it with rudeness.

I now own a mazda and the toyota.
What goes around comes around.
NO BAILOUT FOR THE UAW!!!

[roster]

Go to a library and look at several editions of Consumer Reports Auto Guide for the last 25 years. We bought a Honda in 1975 and have owned nothing but Hondas since then. In January I sold my son's 16-year old Accord and buyers were standing in line. One lady almost cried when I told her it was already sold.

[sleepie]

oh boy--now the senate wants to rewrite the bill-----here comes 40 million in wooden arrows,,along with the auto loan!!!!!!!

[dieselgal]

I love the ad Hobbs. It pretty much is true.
We can't keep bailing out companies just because of the threat of unemployment. Those of us that make few dollars cannot keep propping up those that take many dollars.
I think if they file bankruptcy, restructure and limit the power of the unions they can come back with car prices that fit better into our middle and lower class society. They will still need the workers after the restructure they just won't have all the union rules so the people won't be unemployed but the rules will change.
They also need to give up on the huge gas hogs and make more cars that get decent mileage and last longer. The technology is there, they just don't make them for the US. WHY?
We have a Ford 250 3/4 ton diesel that gets better mileage than most people get in their cars and it has over 300,000 miles on it. I also have a Volkswagen diesel that gets great mileage. We love both vehicles.

[dunkonu23]

This is all very funny and entertaining to those who aren't directly affected. Here's the real story.

I'm a contractor to Chrysler. I work for Verizon Business. I am non-union. I've never been a union member. If Chrysler fails, I fail. I will have to walk away from a house whose fixed-rate, prime mortgage is $150, 000 upside down. I will have to walk away because I won't be able to sell my house and there will be no jobs in Michigan that will pay me enough to pay my bills because there will be approximately 50,000 of the 150,000 unemployed people who are after the same job as I, so I will have to leave Michigan. I am certified out the a**, I have a Ph.D. in Computer Science so, I'm qualified. The 150,000 figure is comprised of former Chrysler employees, contractors, factory workers, suppliers, restaurant owners, dealers, and just about any other job you can think of. My credit will be ruined for 7 years.

Amplify that by about 2.5-4.5 million people. The effects of all of the Detroit 3 going out of business is, to quote the Moody's economist who testified before the Senate last week, "...cataclysmic". 1 in 10 of all people in the United States and a lot of people around the world will be affected.

You're right to complain about the quality of the products. You're right to be outraged about a bridge loan, but consider the alternative and stretch your thinking to include people outside your circle.

Structured Chapter II. I don't buy the argument that people won't buy cars from a company in bankruptcy. Many can't buy cars now because they can't get financing. That won't change in Chapter 11, either. Chapter 11 is not a viable solution because it will cost the federal government far more of my money to execute Debtor In Possesion loans that will remain unpaid for a long time. Automotive bankruptcies are different things. Delphi, the largest supplier in the world has been in Chapter 11 bankruptcy for over 4.5 years. Yeah, people are still employed there, but how long do you think the other suppliers will last when they can't be paid the full amount owed because the trustee says they can only pay half? That alone will start a cascading chain of failures that will ultimately lead to the failure of the entire domestic industry. Don't think the transplants won't be affected, either. Transpants who make cars in the United States get 70 percent of their parts from the same suppliers as the domestics.

Transplants. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW and every other car company are experiencing unprecidented sales slides. Ford, last month lost less sales than Toyota. Daimler (Mercedes) has applied to the German government for assistance (and have cut production in the US--laying off workers), as has BMW. Fiat says they can't make it as a standalone. Nissan/Renault is struggling as well and may need assistance from France or Japan. So, it's not just here.

So, laugh all you want. Play politics. Argue about the "car czar". Argue that Chrysler is privately owned. At the end of the day, almost literally, my fate, perhaps your fate, and perhaps the fate of this country is in the hands of a few vocal Senators who are enjoying making up for the mistakes they made when they gave Paulson a 700 billion dollar blank check--without proper oversight--that was supposed stimulate this economy when instead all it has done is fill the coffers of companies like Citicorp and AIG.

Scott

[dieselgal]

Scott, I don't think anyone is laughing because it isn't funny. We are just through with bailing those that continue to fail because it doesn't cost them a dime. There will be lots of casualties and isn't funny at all. This should be blamed on the company and not your government. If a company doesn't learn , do you continue to bail?
If my company were to fail here in my small town the same thing would happen to me and the 200 people employed by my company. I would lose much of what I have worked for and have to start from scratch. The difference is that the government wouldn't even be considering bailing out the company I work for and my company wouldn't be expecting them to bail them out. I hope things work out for you and hopefully with your skills you will land on your feet.
Good luck.

[sleepie]

your right ,,the hometown company would go to the home town bank and get a loan and bail themselves out---and you probably would not even know it went down---this is a loan -----not a bailout free money

[roster]

I am sorry for every worker who faces possible job loss. I pray that every person on the planet will have a job where they can be productive. But bailouts will move us in the opposite direction long term.

The piper will have to be paid eventually and the later he is paid the worse the suffering will be. "Saving" these jobs puts other people out of work by diverting resources and funds to inefficient, ineffective companies. The Big Three need to reorganize under Chapter 11, Bankruptcy Protection, and get on with life. At least one of them needs to shut their doors or maybe merge with one of the others.

In North Carolina, we have almost given up our textile and furniture manufacturing industries. Many of people in positions similar to yours suffered. Many have gone on to other things and prospered. Few would like to return to the "good ole days".

Depending on the federal government to provide jobs is only digging a nasty hole deeper.

Best of luck to all of you.

[sleepie]

government dug us out of the last big hole we were in!

[dunkonu23]

I know I will land on my feet. It's not in my nature to fail. I will just land in another state with ruined credit at 53 years-old. I won't be able to buy a car because I won't be able to get a loan until I'm 60. Am I angry? You better believe it. I work for a company that came out of Chapter 11 and merged with Verizon. Before Chapter 11, nearly all of my 401k was destroyed because of corporate greed. Prior to that I wanted to retire at 55. Now, I'm at the point where I wanted to retire at 60. My 401k has lost nearly half its value. Sure, I'll pick up the pieces and start over and I'll succeed, but I won't like the startup one bit.

You stated merger. That's all fine and well, however consider this: GM is contemplating getting rid of four of its brands. If they merge with Chrysler, they'll have a lot more brands to sunset--does it make sense to futher burden an already teetering company? Of those dropped brands, they'll be legally obligated to provide parts for ten years and cover warranties. Next, consider the cost to the government. Chrysler and GM claimed they saw between 7 and 10 billion dollars in savings should they merge. Same scenario as before if Chrysler goes out of business: 150,000 people out of work in Michigan alone for the reasons mentioned earlier. Cities faced with lost tax revenue--Auburn Hills, Sterling Heights, Warren--to name a few, will be forced to cut basic services and layoff more people and the cascade goes on and on until the federal government has to bail out states who can't pay unemployment and voila, combined with restructuring costs and legacy commitments, there goes your projected savings.

There is NO good solution, short or long term that doesn't involve the federal government and our tax dollars eventually.

Scott

[roster]

Scott,

Coincidentally a friend and I have just now been trading emails lamenting the stock portions of our 401ks. Here is a line I threw into the latest email:

"Well if half the kids don't have a biological father living in the house, 30% never finish high school and who knows how many are drunk or drugged regularly, how could we expect to build a good economy?"

We have met the enemy and he is us.

"America is great because America is good." Are we still good?