Melatonin - My Results

[roster]

I have taken 3 mg WonderLabs melatonin each of the last three nights. They do seem to help with sleeping. Also my mood seems to be positively elevated the next day.

Now for certain, I have been extremely sleepy after lunch each day. This is with being very alert in the morning, late afternoon and early evening.

The after lunch sleepiness is so bad that I will skip the melatonin tonight in advance of a presentation to a group of 30 people tomorrow after lunch. I don't want to nod off while I am pitching my spiel.

Anyone else have experience with this?

[GoofyUT]

Melatonin has a very short serum elimination half-life. So, its unlikely that your nightime use of melatonin is causing your drowsiness after lunch. What is more likely is that you're experiencing post-prandial drowsiness related to your blood-glucose levels after eating your lunch, and I'd talk with your doctor about this, and perhaps have your A1C checked.

Contrary to Snoredog's opinion, I would urge you to restrict your dosage of melatonin to no more than 200 MICROGRAMS since there is some evidence that continued usage of the 3 MILLIGRAM strength may lead to desensitization of your body's melatonin MT1 and MT2 receptors thereby denying you the sleep promoting effects of taking melatonin.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

[DreamStalker]

I have taken 3 mg WonderLabs melatonin each of the last three nights. They do seem to help with sleeping. Also my mood seems to be positively elevated the next day.

Now for certain, I have been extremely sleepy after lunch each day. This is with being very alert in the morning, late afternoon and early evening.

The after lunch sleepiness is so bad that I will skip the melatonin tonight in advance of a presentation to a group of 30 people tomorrow after lunch. I don't want to nod off while I am pitching my spiel.

Anyone else have experience with this?

I have had the exact same experience Rooster ... can't explain why if it is not suppose to cause drowsiness during the day.

[roster]

Melatonin has a very short serum elimination half-life. So, its unlikely that your nightime use of melatonin is causing your drowsiness after lunch. What is more likely is that you're experiencing post-prandial drowsiness related to your blood-glucose levels after eating your lunch, and I'd talk with your doctor about this, and perhaps have your A1C checked.

Chuck

I have rarely had the extreme drowsiness after lunch until after the three nights I took melatonin. Something was definitely different on those three days.

Contrary to Snoredog's opinion, I would urge you to restrict your dosage of melatonin to no more than 200 MICROGRAMS since there is some evidence that continued usage of the 3 MILLIGRAM strength may lead to desensitization of your body's melatonin MT1 and MT2 receptors thereby denying you the sleep promoting effects of taking melatonin.

Chuck

That's what I was afraid of. Can you cite a source of this evidence?

Thanks Chuck.

[roster]

I have had the exact same experience Rooster ... can't explain why if it is not suppose to cause drowsiness during the day.

Thanks for the comment DreamStalker. Are you still taking Melatonin?

[Snoredog]

Melatonin has a very short serum elimination half-life. So, its unlikely that your nightime use of melatonin is causing your drowsiness after lunch. What is more likely is that you're experiencing post-prandial drowsiness related to your blood-glucose levels after eating your lunch, and I'd talk with your doctor about this, and perhaps have your A1C checked.

Contrary to Snoredog's opinion, I would urge you to restrict your dosage of melatonin to no more than 200 MICROGRAMS since there is some evidence that continued usage of the 3 MILLIGRAM strength may lead to desensitization of your body's melatonin MT1 and MT2 receptors thereby denying you the sleep promoting effects of taking melatonin.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

SHOW us the evidence.

According to Dr. Dement:

How Do You Know If You Have A Large Sleep Debt?

It could not be simpler. If you become drowsy at anytime during the day, you have a sizable sleep debt. Large scale surveys have shown that about 90% of all adults experience sleepiness after lunch. In what may be the number one erroneous belief in our society, we assume that eating a big lunch causes us to become sleepy. This is completely wrong! When our sleep debt is low, we do not become sleepy after lunch. When our sleep debt is large, our alertness will diminish in the mid-afternoon whether or not we have had lunch. Other signs that we have a large sleep debt are difficulty waking up in the morning, difficulty concentrating, low motivation, and a tendency to be cranky and irritable.

http://www.sleepquest.com/d_column_archive6.html

[Snoredog]

this site reports:
http://sleep-medicine.advanceweb.com/co ... x?CC=66741

Most commonly, melatonin may cause drowsiness at unwanted times. However, patients can adjust the dose or the timing of administration. For example, they should take this medication at night, usually two hours before bedtime. A good starting dose might be 0.3 mg or 0.5 mg. The dose could then be increased over several nights if needed. If the patient has no benefit at 3 mg, you may question whether melatonin is appropriate.

Another suggesting 1mg to 3mg doses:
http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=1545

This article suggests altering the time you may take melatonin, they even took it in the morning and afternoon, but it depends on what you are trying to fix:

OHSU study reveals how low-dose melatonin taken in the afternoon helps most winter depressives whose physiological clocks are off kilter due to the later winter sunrise

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities ... /sad_2.asp

But do a search on it, after lunch/noon drowsiness is pretty common especially if you have one of those boring desk jobs

Your "peak" melatonin level is at about 2AM if you follow normal day/night wake/sleep cycles. Your level tapers off from 2AM and is at its lowest in early morning hours.

Here's what a few Ph.D's have to say about it from MotherNature:

You rise and shine with the new day, ready to take on the world. You roll through your morning tasks like a ball of fire. And then in the afternoon, you fizzle.

What could have caused your energy and alertness to take such an extraordinary nosedive? Something serious? Not likely. This sudden slump is a normal, healthy, expected function of our circadian rhythms—the built-in biological clocks that regulate our sleep/wake systems, explains biological psychologist David F. Dinges, Ph.D., associate professor in the psychiatry department at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine in Philadelphia.

"In the mornings, we are refreshed after a night's sleep and our energy and alertness are at peak levels," says Dr. Dinges. "There is a dip in the middle of the afternoon when sleepiness reappears—our natural nap zone. Later in the afternoon, our alertness typically rises again."

Individuals differ in the degree to which this slump hits. Generally, the depth of the dip is a function of how sleepy you are and the amount of sleep you get at night. "If you are short on sleep and in an inactive situation, alertness will go down and you'll really feel sleepiness creep in when you're in your nap zone—usually between 1:00 and 3:00 p.m.," says Wilse B. Webb, Ph.D., professor of psychology at the University of Florida in Gainesville. "If the slump hits you extremely hard, it could just mean that you have an extremely strong nap tendency. But it could also mean that you are chronically depriving yourself of adequate restorative sleep at night."

If you're actually sleep deprived, this normally shallow dip may take on the size of the Grand Canyon. For most of us, the slump represents a few yawns and an occasional inconvenience. But if you find yourself conking out at your desk or fighting to stay awake at the wheel, it is a warning signal that the sleep you're getting is woefully inadequate. These deep, powerful slumps are usually the body's way of telling you to stop staying up so late, waking up so early and keeping such irregular hours. But for some, they may be a sign of a more serious sleep disorder that is preventing sleep's restorative powers from fully going to work. A likely suspect is sleep apnea—a serious sleep disorder that involves episodes of disrupted breathing.

Your noontime meal can also lead you into an afternoon tailspin. Bonnie J. Spring, Ph.D., professor of psychology at the University of Health Sciences/Chicago Medical School, has shown in studies that a high-carbohydrate/low-protein lunch can produce an afternoon drop in energy and alertness by elevating the brain's levels of serotonin, a substance that makes us sleepy.

Rest of the text can be found here:
http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Boo ... s/16/2.cfm

[Highnote]

This in vitro study found evidence of melatonin receptor desensitization at high doses. It's a long way from demonstrating the effect in real live people, though:

Melatonin-mediated regulation of human MT(1) melatonin receptors expressed in mammalian cells.

We conclude that in vivo endogenous melatonin does not significantly affect the functional sensitivity of MT(1) melatonin receptors, however, exogenous melatonin taken therapeutically at doses above physiological levels could desensitize the receptor thereby affecting physiological responses mediated following activation of MT(1) melatonin receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

In any case, a lower dose may help the afternoon sleepiness. Another option is to take it closer to bedtime. One possible explanation of the afternoon sleepiness is the phase-shifting effect of melatonin. The closer to bedtime it is taken, the less this effect. Unfortunately the full studies with this information are not available online. It's based on the melatonin phase-response curve research done by Dr. Al Lewy of Oregon Health Sciences University.

As with anything else, the lowest effective dose is best.

[billbolton]

Some relevant citations....

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/melatonin-1017.html

http://www.melatonin.com/melatonin-dosage.php

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycholog ... atonin.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_95676501

http://www.ceri.com/melaton.htm

Cheers,

Bill

[Snoredog]

Some relevant citations....

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/melatonin-1017.html

http://www.melatonin.com/melatonin-dosage.php

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycholog ... atonin.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_95676501

http://www.ceri.com/melaton.htm

Cheers,

Bill

The only one that really matters is the top link from MIT.

I guess it is a good thing we are not all Chinese hamsters or even worse an ovary..." like we can all relate to chinese hamsters here.

The one to look at is the MIT finding done by Wurtman. In it, you'll find again GoofyUT's taken any results he has found totally out of context, he likes to scare everyone into thinking he's right.

Why should you read the MIT results? Because I think if you read that one you'll find one of the authors of that study is Richard J Wurtman along with MIT.

If it is the one I'm thinking of, it measured the serum levels of various melatonin doses up to 80mg. In that study they measured various doses from 0mg (placebo) up to 80mg.

They found the ideal dose for "inducing" sleep to be 1mg or less, in fact they found that using 0.1 to 0.3 doses were enough to bring serum levels up to nocturnal levels reached normally.

I think if you read that study you'll come up with the same results as found in the patent filed by the same Author and MIT "METHODS OF INDUCING SLEEP USING MELATONIN".

Here, I'll make it easy, it is listed under Richard J Wurtman & MIT on US PATENT (US Patent #5, 449,683) granted on September 12, 1995.

Read the patent, I suggest paying special attention to paragraph #65 at the bottom of the page what they say about Chuck's suggested dose.

If you are a Melatonin manufacturer, you read that patent then decide if you are going to pay the authors royalties and license fees if you make a dose of melatonin 1mg or less and claim it helps with inducing sleep or you will end up paying the owners of that patent for every pill you sell if you use their "method" to induce sleep.

Much easier to just make it 2mg or 3mg and let the users cut it in half or quarters themselves.

The question is: are you trying to "induce" sleep or are you trying to improve sleep architecture.

I think you'll also find in those studies melatonin's half life is short, you are only going to use what your body can use and taking more than you need won't help or cause a 3rd arm to grow out of your forehead, or your MT receptors are going to be permantently impaired from using it, one of those studies should indicate that melatonin half life is very short it is eliminated with one pass through the liver and urine.

I find it interesting they can measure melatonin serum levels for determining correct doses but they can't tell us what a young person has say 25yrs of age compared to a person that is 50yrs of age or one that is 70yrs of age, all they can say is it decreases as we age.

So if that were true, how does one determining dose work for all ages? wouldn't a younger person suffering insomnia need a lower dose than say a person 50 yrs or one 70 yrs? You would think that the elderly person may just need more than the 25yr old.

[DreamStalker]

I have had the exact same experience Rooster ... can't explain why if it is not suppose to cause drowsiness during the day.

Thanks for the comment DreamStalker. Are you still taking Melatonin?

Yea, but I think I'm going to start taking half to see what happens this week.

[Snoredog]

I have had the exact same experience Rooster ... can't explain why if it is not suppose to cause drowsiness during the day.

Thanks for the comment DreamStalker. Are you still taking Melatonin?

Yea, but I think I'm going to start taking half to see what happens this week.

I would also try taking it at different times, maybe instead of right before bed, try it 2-3 hours earlier than bedtime and see what happens.

Like I've said before, I've taken melatonin since 1992, used to also get drowsy during the day after lunch, would have to go walk around or drink some coffee, but I hated doing that because I'd have a hard time then falling asleep which was why I took the melatonin in the first place.

Cut the tablet in half, let us know if your after lunch fatigue subsides any. About 1PM is when our levels naturally start increasing back up, so that coincides with what you have been reporting.

You might also in a separate test try taking it at a totally different time, try taking it 2-3 hours earlier and see if you notice any difference.

It is easy to say it helps you sleep (when you are already in bed), what happens when you take it like 2-3 hours earlier watching TV? Does it make you groggy and want to sleep?

For me, I take it and 30-minutes later I'd have to put toothpicks under my eyes to stay awake.

[billbolton]

The only one that really matters is the top link from MIT.

They all "really matter", whether you choose to regard them or not.

[Snoredog]

The only one that really matters is the top link from MIT.

They all "really matter", whether you choose to regard them or not.

I was only meaning the top one is the only one with any scientific data behind it, the others are testimonials or sites trying to sell it, I usually ignore that data.

From the top or MIT study they made 9 different patent claims comprising the patent that I mentioned. They patented the "methods" of how they tested and compared serum levels of the listed oral doses to placebo. Even though the number of patients tested were small, only like 17, the quality of the testing done was considered high because it was double blind placebo controlled study.

Only thing disheartening about that study, is they tested 0.1, 0.3, 1 & 10 mg. doses, jumping from 1mg to 10mg on up to 80mg. What is the common dose sold? 3mg of which wasn't tested.

Yes I ignore all those other claims made about melatonin, I only use it for one purpose, to reduce sleep latency and keep me from waking up every 2 hours during the night.

If you are only wanting it to help "induce" sleep then according to the study and patent, 0.3mg is "enough" to induce sleep, but their own data contained in the patent shows 1mg actually does a better job, then it falls on its face at 10mg with no other dose tested in between, so you have no idea if 1.5mg is better than 1mg, or 2mg is better than 3mg all we know is 10mg and higher is not good.

The patent also includes 16 drawings, mainly showing the different responses and serum levels of melatonin over a 24 hr clock. They all resemble the chart from one of your links provided below, at least that one gives us a comparison from the young to old serum levels:


"Peak" levels are pretty consistent across the board. I don't see what taking melatonin at noon for example would do for a person.

[billbolton]

the others are testimonials or sites trying to sell it

So you didn't even bother to look at them