Melatonin - My Results

billbolton wrote:

Snoredog wrote:the others are testimonials or sites trying to sell it

So you didn't even bother to look at them

well, my own personal experience in taking melatonin since 1992 tells me it doesn't:

-Prevent cancer, I've had skin cancer twice during that period (malignant melanoma and BCC), so that myth is busted as far as I'm concerned.
-Prevent stroke, I've had two of those, must have skipped a night I guess.
-Prevent OSA, I use the machine every night.
-Prevent Hypertension, I've been as high as Stage III using the old scale, CPAP and upwards of 20mg Lisinopril keep that in check. Since hypertension is a big risk factor for stroke, I have to keep mine below 120/80 at all times, melatonin doesn't touch that, but of course one of your sites say I need to take between 10 and 50mg nightly for that, ain't gonna happen, I'll eat dark chocolate.

I have given my dog a tiny bit during 4th of July, didn't help, he still barked at every whistling pete that went off.

So yeah I pretty much ignore all those other claims, maybe jet lag and sleep I can fathom.

I take a 1 mg tablet 30 minutes to 1 hour before bedtime (usually around 11:30 PM) and it seems to work just fine.

Melatonin-mediated regulation of human MT(1) melatonin receptors expressed in mammalian cells.

We conclude that in vivo endogenous melatonin does not significantly affect the functional sensitivity of MT(1) melatonin receptors, however, exogenous melatonin taken therapeutically at doses above physiological levels could desensitize the receptor thereby affecting physiological responses mediated following activation of MT(1) melatonin receptors.

I guess it is a good thing we are not all Chinese hamsters or even worse an ovary..." like we can all relate to chinese hamsters here.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. The test was done on animal cells which expressed human melatonin receptors, presumably by gene splicing. Since the human melatonin receptors were desensitized by doses above physiologic levels (read: more than 300-500 micrograms), the same thing may hold true for human melatonin receptors in real humans. It doesn't prove it, but it does indicate a potential concern.

About 1PM is when our levels naturally start increasing back up, so that coincides with what you have been reporting.

Melatonin levels don't start to rise about 2 hours before bedtime, and only if the light is dim. This is known as "Dim Light Melatonin Onset," or DLMO.

http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.120 ... 0BSM0102_3

It's quite unlikely there's any melatonin in the bloodstream to explain the afternoon drowsiness. The dose from the night before is long gone and the body won't start releasing its own until 2 hours before bedtime. Even if it tried to start earlier, for example because of jet-lag, normal lighting levels would suppress it. Whatever the reason for the afternoon drowsiness, melatonin in the bloodstream ain't it.

Bottom line: To reduce afternoon sleepiness, try taking less melatonin at night.

DreamStalker wrote:

rooster wrote:

DreamStalker wrote:
I have had the exact same experience Rooster ... can't explain why if it is not suppose to cause drowsiness during the day.

Thanks for the comment DreamStalker. Are you still taking Melatonin?

Yea, but I think I'm going to start taking half to see what happens this week.

I assume you will let us know the results.

I did not take melatonin last night and I did not get sleepy after lunch. I ate a 10-inch cheese pizza and a huge slice of watermelon at 11:00 a.m. which should have put me to sleep if it was a blood-sugar problem.

At 1:00 p.m. I was making a pitch to 30 people in a small room who view me the way you guys view DMEs, so my adrenalin may have kept me alert.

Congrats. Adrenaline is pretty effective isn't it!

Question: On days when you were sleepy in the afternoon, did you get sleepy any earlier at night?

Highnote wrote:Congrats. Adrenaline is pretty effective isn't it!

Question: On days when you were sleepy in the afternoon, did you get sleepy any earlier at night?

No and this is how things went the only three days I took 3 mg melatonin compared to the days before:

Positive
- Seemed to sleep better/longer at night.
- *Improved mood in morning, late afternoon and evening.
- Less sleepy next evening yet still able to fall asleep quickly upon bedding down.

Negative
Extremely sleepy between 1:00 and 3:00 p.m.

With such nice positives I would like to figure out what is going on with that 1:00-3:00 time period. Also that concern is still there about melatonin receptor desensitization if I continue 3 mg dose.

Without melatonin I have never had a problem falling asleep. It was always fall asleep quickly but waken after 3 to 4 hours and have difficulty the rest of the night.

Thanks very much for your input.

So what is the bottom line with melatonin?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in large amounts eg:3 mg?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in small amounts eg: 1mg?

Is it bad to use it everyday?

I can't seem to sleep well all night without some help!

The last two weeks I have used 1.5mg (a 3mg cut in half) taken about 30 min before mask time and I have gone to sleep well and pretty much slept the whole night. i wake up once or twice but fall asleep almost immediately..

Last night I used a 1mg pill taken about 1.5 hours before mask time and I woke up at 3am wide awake. My mind blinked awake and i couldn't get back to sleep for over an hour. I actually took half a 1mg at 3am to help me get back to sleep and it worked, it just took over an hour to do it.

I am just worried about using it to often and at to high a level. I have read that it shouldn't be taken everynight, but I need to!
Any ideas about all this.
Please help

painterman wrote:So what is the bottom line with melatonin?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in large amounts eg:3 mg?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in small amounts eg: 1mg?

Is it bad to use it everyday?
..

These are all good questions that I would like to have answered and I am happy to read everyone's opinion.

I do think the "bottom line" is there has not been enough research done to present good scientific answers to the questions.

Still, I will appreciate any others who share their opinions or experience.

Highnote wrote:

Melatonin-mediated regulation of human MT(1) melatonin receptors expressed in mammalian cells.

We conclude that in vivo endogenous melatonin does not significantly affect the functional sensitivity of MT(1) melatonin receptors, however, exogenous melatonin taken therapeutically at doses above physiological levels could desensitize the receptor thereby affecting physiological responses mediated following activation of MT(1) melatonin receptors.

I guess it is a good thing we are not all Chinese hamsters or even worse an ovary..." like we can all relate to chinese hamsters here.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. The test was done on animal cells which expressed human melatonin receptors, presumably by gene splicing. Since the human melatonin receptors were desensitized by doses above physiologic levels (read: more than 300-500 micrograms), the same thing may hold true for human melatonin receptors in real humans. It doesn't prove it, but it does indicate a potential concern.

About 1PM is when our levels naturally start increasing back up, so that coincides with what you have been reporting.

Melatonin levels don't start to rise about 2 hours before bedtime, and only if the light is dim. This is known as "Dim Light Melatonin Onset," or DLMO.

http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.120 ... 0BSM0102_3

It's quite unlikely there's any melatonin in the bloodstream to explain the afternoon drowsiness. The dose from the night before is long gone and the body won't start releasing its own until 2 hours before bedtime. Even if it tried to start earlier, for example because of jet-lag, normal lighting levels would suppress it. Whatever the reason for the afternoon drowsiness, melatonin in the bloodstream ain't it.

Bottom line: To reduce afternoon sleepiness, try taking less melatonin at night.

Here is the study where they tested it on the rat receptor cells:
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/ ... 18/14/1646

Well I have cut back to 1.5 mg as of Sunday after having started on 3mg about 2 weeks ago.

Prior to using melatonin I could be asleep about 15 minutes after going to bed. Last night I had a heck of a time getting to sleep (about 3 hrs of just laying in bed and I felt tired too). Perhaps it was just a freak night or something (I'm hoping so). I think I will just stop altogether since I really did not need it to begin with (just thought maybe it would make for better sleep ... but as they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" should have been what I said to myself).

So, like Rooster, I think I will discontinue use altogether.

DreamStalker wrote:........

So, like Rooster, I think I will discontinue use altogether.

A concern about taking melatonin (or any sleep aid) that we did not yet mention is the possibility that it will improve sleep while masking another problem.

From past experience, I was prescribed sleep drugs and sedatives while the underlying problem, severe obstructive sleep apnea, was overlooked.

And then after I received a proper diagnosis and started cpap therapy I still had problems sleeping. Again the docs prescribed sleep drugs and sedatives which tended to mask another problem - asymptomatic GERD.

So there is this concern with melatonin, i.e., that it might mask the fact that my cpap therapy is not working properely, or the GERD therapy is not working properly, or that there are other undiscovered ailments.

Someone do like the car manufacturers, implant a plug in us and when something is wrong just download the data and read the error codes.

painterman wrote:So what is the bottom line with melatonin?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in large amounts eg:3 mg?

No evidence of that happening in humans, even from rats it wasn't shown permanent.

painterman wrote:
Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in small amounts eg: 1mg?

again, No evidence of that in humans, MIT study suggests 1mg an ideal dose (depending on what you are trying to accomplish with the said dose). The MIT study and associated patent seems to suggest that we will only use what we can use then any higher doses are ignored or don't do anything for us. It is why they patented its use for doses 1mg or less.

Let's say your particular melatonin level is Normal (what ever that may be) and you take supplemental melatonin, you probably won't see it do anything for you. Same thing for those that took high levels of melatoinin, it didn't have any effect on them, meaning your body is only going to use what it needs and it disregards the rest.

painterman wrote:

Is it bad to use it everyday?

Again, no evidence of any adverse reactions at much greater dosages from being consumed by humans since well before 1958, how much more time do they need? Searching the FDA.gov for adverse reactions has never shown anything.

I think the MIT study was the first study to mention that at higher doses (up to 80mg) that the potential for hypothermia may be a risk factor. Take 80 times the dose of any prescription drug and it will most likely kill you, by comparison it may lower your core temperature by 1 to 1.5 degrees.

painterman wrote:
I can't seem to sleep well all night without some help!

The last two weeks I have used 1.5mg (a 3mg cut in half) taken about 30 min before mask time and I have gone to sleep well and pretty much slept the whole night. i wake up once or twice but fall asleep almost immediately..

Last night I used a 1mg pill taken about 1.5 hours before mask time and I woke up at 3am wide awake. My mind blinked awake and i couldn't get back to sleep for over an hour. I actually took half a 1mg at 3am to help me get back to sleep and it worked, it just took over an hour to do it.

I am just worried about using it to often and at to high a level. I have read that it shouldn't be taken everynight, but I need to!
Any ideas about all this.
Please help

Observing your daytime changes is what I would go by. I've always said if you take to much it will leave you groggy the next day.

You have to first determine for yourself what you are trying to accomplish by using supplemental melatonin, then at what dose actually works for you, our melatonin levels are all different based upon our age, how much light you get and other factors.

-If you are using it for insomnia, I would take it about 1 to 1.5hrs before bed.
-If you are using it to stay asleep and/or eliminate awakenings, I would take it right before you go to bed.
-If it gets past 2AM and you are still awake after taking it earlier, I would try a TylenolPM or Unisom.

It is always better to only take only what you need, but it is at the same time all too easy to not take enough then come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. IF you take from .3mcg to 3mg and it does nothing for you, then a low melatonin level is probably not what you need. .3mg (point 3 or 300mcg) does nothing for me, but I would not take any more than 3mg on a regular basis either.

It would be interesting to see how many take melatonin daily and don't have any afternoon fatigue associated with the taking of it.

If I was taking 3mg and I was getting afternoon fatigue like Rooster, I would also cut back on the dosage until that daytime fatigue subsides. A good sharp knife cuts a tablet in half pretty easily, then a bottle lasts you twice as long.

The problem for most people is they work Monday thru Friday and have a specific routine they may follow (like 3 cups of coffee during the day or soda after lunch) during the week then when the weekend comes they change that routine. If you want to see how you do from night to night, you need to keep the weekend routine similar to the mid-week routine if you want to compare results. I don't suggest working on the weekends, to hell with that.

IF we can see here by Rooster's example (i.e. with only 1 patient) that possibly taking too much melatonin "may" lead to daytime drowsiness between 1-3PM by those taking it, then why couldn't MIT, the Mayo, Cleveland Clinic or other learning institution test that and report those finding (if any) it in their million dollar study?

I say kill the stinking rats, test the stuff on humans and measure the outcome and make suggestions we can follow based upon the results. If you read the studies that mini .3mcg dose is enough to induce sleep (insomnia) or bring your natural levels up to Normal.

I have NO idea how 10 nM in a petri dish on rat receptor cells relates to a 3mg tablet of melatonin I may take to stay asleep, that amount could be 3,000,000mg dose for all I know.

Maybe ole Borat can tell us that.

Snoredog wrote:

painterman wrote:So what is the bottom line with melatonin?

Can your body get desensitized to melatonin used in large amounts eg:3 mg?

No evidence of that happening in humans, even from rats it wasn't shown permanent.

Thanks for finding this study.

Take a closer look, they did find continuing desensitization after 24h. They weren't looking for a really long-term effect.

From the study:

after treatment with 10 nM melatonin full recovery was not attained even after 24 h.

They are not so much concerned that our melatonin receptors will shrivel up and die, as they are that they will be desensitized when our natural melatonin production kicks in. Then it won't have the same effect it normally does.

Snoredog wrote: I have NO idea how 10 nM in a petri dish on rat receptor cells relates to a 3mg tablet of melatonin I may take to stay asleep, that amount could be 3,000,000mg dose for all I know.

Maybe ole Borat can tell us that.

10-20 mg is what I come up with from a rough-and-ready calculation, making a couple of assumptions. Looks like they were trying to approximate a large human dose.

I have mentioned melatonin to 3 different neurologists and attended talks by some of the melatonin researchers. None of the neurologists had a problem with it; the researchers advised starting at dosages in the 300 microgram range out of concern for the kinds of things we've been discussing.

I personally take Twinlab 2mg sustained release several hours before bedtime for delayed sleep phase syndrome, and plan to continue to do so. I'd take a smaller sustained release dose if someone made one. I don't take it on the weekend to give my body a break.

Highnote wrote:...........
I personally take Twinlab 2mg sustained release several hours before bedtime for delayed sleep phase syndrome, and plan to continue to do so. I'd take a smaller sustained release dose if someone made one. I don't take it on the weekend to give my body a break.

Can you tell us what you observe in sleep patterns/daytime alertness and mood comparing weekdays to weekends? Thanks.

Rooster, I haven't read everyone's replies here, so if this has been said before- I apologize- but just wanted to way in here as I've had some experience with Melatonin.

I believe Mel is a seratonin modulator, and that might explain why your mood is lifted, but, I must point out, that Mel also works by relaxing muscles, which, if you've got the physical form of sleep apnea, isn't a good thing because after all the problem with hte apnea is that the throat is getting blocked off because of relaxed muscles and tissue to begin with. So, while it helps us to sleep, the mel might also be worsening hte apneas if the apneas are physical in nature and not neurological, so it might be adding apnea events that you wouldn't ordinarily experience- It would b3e nice to see someone's recordings from the encore software after taking mel to see if it is indeed causing more events

Also, be careful, if Mel dies mess with Seratonin levels, that isn't a good thing- there are now warnings on popular 'depression modulating' anti-depressents which warn about increased suicidal tendancies- Docs love to issue perscriptiuons for 'depression' when they are at a loss to explain a person's symptoms, and I think this country is WAY over-perscribed for anti-depressents-