Ever Notice how some threads. . .

[Babette]

Hey, is this the Crabby Broads Club? Can I join?

Sorry, missed this thread. Was thinking too much about my hair.

Jen, You are so right!

And for what it's worth - I LIKE YOU, and I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM YOU, and I VALUE YOU ON THIS FORUM IMMENSELY!

Hugs,
B.

[Babette]

I think coffee drinkers with large bladders would have the advantage in a pissing contest, but alas, being female, I don't have any aim!
Jen

Au Contraire, my friend. It's BEER that is the key ingredient! Give me enough beer, and I can pee standing up, and not get anything on myself wet!

I did that once, in the woods, thinking I was alone, and was the HIT of the sweat lodge that night! Everyone was so admiring of my skill!

Cheers,
Barbara - Champion Beer Pisser

[Babette]

Is it Beer Thirty yet?
B.

[darthlucy]

Au Contraire, my friend. It's BEER that is the key ingredient! Give me enough beer, and I can pee standing up, and not get anything on myself wet!

My mind's eye just went blind!

[Wolfmarsh]

In the interest of throwing gas on the fire and watching the explosion, I agree with snoredog. Pretty much every split_city "revelation" i take with a heaping spoon of bullshit.

I havent seen someone dump that much bullshit on a place since back to the future.

[Rabid1]

I actually have no desire to enter into this lynching.

I may have to change my nick from Rabid1 to Placid1.

[jennmary]

In the interest of throwing gas on the fire and watching the explosion, I agree with snoredog. Pretty much every split_city "revelation" i take with a heaping spoon of bullshit.

I havent seen someone dump that much bullshit on a place since back to the future.

You are my new hero. Thank you for saying it in a poetic way that I just couldnt do myself. That last sentence made my evening.

[split_city]

What the hell is wrong with you spit-city? Some of us came to this thread to get AWAY from you and your arguement.....then you come to an anti fighting thread and start a fight. Jen started this thread because she was tired or YOU. Grow up.

I am going to work now....but am sure than when I get home I will find more of your imature stupidity. Please prove me wrong.

So Jennmary, is it right for people on here to make untruthful accusations on here about me? All I asked was for these people to please provide me with posts I made which they thought were being insensitive. How is this being stupid? I have not come accoss being aggressive in anyway. However, being accused by certain posters about stuff I never said is hurtful. Yet, I'm still not being aggressive. All I asked was someone to privide me with some links.

Yes, Jen created this thread. However, it's directed at me. Something like this concerns me:

I even got called dumb tonight. How insane is that

Given that this thread is in relation to me, I assume that this comment is something that Jen is saying I said, and I assume that others would think the same thing. If this is true, I'm very disappointed because I did NOT say that. There's nothing in any of my posts which can be confused with that either.

Is it wrong of me to try and sort this out? Wouldn't you be upset as well if people were accusing you of stuff you didn't say, particularly the "dumb" comment?

Once again, I have never been aggressive in any of my posts despite being wrongly accused and ganged up upon. Again, all I asked was for these people to provide links to my posts. Is that wrong of me? Is that being immature?

How am I fighting? I see other people being aggressive but I have been calm. Please provide me with some links in which I have instigated an argument. I provided alternative opinions about a topic. I never said what that Nancy girl said was right. I'm not stupid. What she said showed that she has little knowledge about the subject. I can understand that what she said would be hurtful to OSA sufferers. None of my posts ever said I agreed with her. The only post I can think of is the one where I said that "OSA is kinda snoring." Obviously people thought I meant snoring = OSA. However, I said I was wrong and I apologised. I said that the factors which occur during snoring i.e. narrowed, floppy airway also occur during hypopneas. An obstructive apnea is the end-point of narrowing. This is what I really meant about snoring and OSA.

The central apnea comment was probably stated at the wrong time:

Yes, but you can have apnea and NOT SNORE.

Yes, it's called a central apnea

This was never meant to be inferred as there aren't any other times when this can occur, as it does happen. I was making light of the situation and I admit it was the wrong time to do it. In retrospect, do people snore during a central apnea? If the answer is no, then I did answer the question.

The being sensitive about weigt issue. Perhaps I did go about it the wrong way. However, I think you stated this because some people have thought that I said that "OSA is a weight problem," and "that weight loss is the only way to cure your OSA," and that "only overweight people get diabetes, hypertension, heart disease" etc. I have never said any of these things. I stated many times that OSA is not confined to overweight people, I never said that hypertension, diabetes and heart disease is confined to overweight people. People are still suggesting I have said these things. I really don't know how many times I have to say otherwise. I don't know how to be clearer about it.

I hope this sorts out a few of the issues.

Jem, I'm not here to argue with you. I am still confused about how our discussion ended in one yesterday. You did make untruthful accusations about me. All I asked was for you to show me the posts which you belived I said. That was all. I never accused you of anything, or said your opinions were wrong.

And, I can't believe, with the light of day, that I let a guy who cinches people up in tight belts around their abdomens and then asks them ever so sweetly to go to sleep so he can check for apnea events get my feathers in a fluff. I can't imagine what kind of person would volunteer for that kind of experiment, that they could possibly sleep, or that the data means anything since people don't sleep with tight belts around their waistes in any sense of reality known to man--no matter how fat they are.

Im regards to the above paragraph. I'm simply discussing this with you. Your are correct is saying that people don't sleep with tight belts around their abdomen. The purpose of the belt was not a fashion statement but was to increase pressure inside the abdomen. This is common in overweight people, particularly males because this is where males predominantly store excess fat. This is not meant to be an insensitive statement at all. It's a fact of life. Neverthess, we believe that this increased pressure would push the relaxed diaphragm and airways upwards towards the head and thus reduce tension on the airway, perhaps making it more collapsible. There is evidence to suggest that the diaphragm moves towards the head during anesthesia when the diaphragm is relaxed. The area of the diaphragm which experiences the most pressure moves towards the head the most. There is also evidence to show that reducing the tension on the airway, makes the airway floppier i.e. more collapsible.

So again, the tight belt was there to increase pressure in the abdomen. That was its purpose, nothing else. The belt was not put on to simulate a beer belly (because it would be wrong to say tight belt = beer belly). We were simply trying to simulate one aspect of central obesity i.e. increased pressure inside the abdomen. There have been other studies which have strapped the chest and abdomen to look at the impact strapping has on lung volume. Lung volume is reduced as BMI increases. Again, these studies never said that strapping = obesity. They simply wanted to see if strapping can reduce lung volume, and if so, how does it reduce lung volume. Furthermore, it's known that the smaller the lung volume, the smaller and more collapsible your airway is. How do you think CPAP works? It works by acting as a splint to open your airway via positive pressure, but CPAP also increases lung volume, thus also contributing to make your airway bigger.

You ask why would patients even bother to participate. A majority said yes because they are interested to know why they have OSA. They are interested to know why males suffer OSA more than females. That was the purpose of the study. To try and look at a mechanism which perhaps explains why males are more prone to suffering OSA. Again, I am only looking at overweight OSA patients. Not because I think that OSA is confined to overweight people, but because we believe that increased pressure inside the abdomen (as is the case in overweight people) may contribute to airway collapse. I very much appreciate the efforts of these patients because it was a tough study. Any sleep study is tough, more so when you are hooked up with extensive pieces of equipment. But this equipment (and studies like this) are required so that researchers (and sleep doctors) can better understand the disorder, so that we can provide OSA patients answers to their questions.

You have basically said that this study is crazy. You're on CPAP right? When CPAP was first invented, do you think many OSA patients had the same sorts of feelings as what you said about my study? "I'm not wearing a mask connected to this machine that blows air into my face, nose, mouth all night." Some OSA patients probably thought that CPAP was some device manufactured by crazy doctors. Fast forward to today. Look at what a difference it can make.

Furthermore, if it wasn't for these "crazy" studies, we (this includes OSA patients) would not know that one of the major muscles which keeps the airway open is the tongue. To assess the activity of the tongue, we have had to insert fine wires into it. I bet when this was first studied, a lot of people had the same belief as yourself.

Again, I'm not arguing with you. I'm simple providing my own input.

Hey that split-city guy is always coming around here to ruffle feathers

One altercation with Snoredog constitutes always? [/quote]

If you click on your Profile button, you can view all of your past posts.[/quote]

I don't see any major altercations apart from those with Snoredog. This was when I first started. He was calling me a crazy scientist from the word go. Apart that and the one yesterday, I don't see me ruffling feathers.

If I may borrow a quote … “Where have I ever said” that these journal articles are gibberish? Perhaps I was referring to the perspective of the reader?

So what were you implying?

Although he may be a bright guy, he has no practical experience

So working in a sleeb lab, performing research studies on OSA patients infers no practical experience?

I think most on this forum will agree that working in a sleep lab, performing research studies on OSA patients does not constitute expertise/experience with OSA.

Have you ever been fat? … and I don’t mean just having a belly full of beer.
Have you ever had OSA?
Have you ever used a PAP machine?[/quote]

I have been overweight, but not obese.

I have never been diagnosed with OSA, but I have not had a diagnostic study

I have tried a PAP machine. Just to feel what it's like. I state that a researcher should always try to undertake the same things that you get your subjects to do in a study.

You're right, I don't have practical experience in a regards to experiencing what an OSA patient goes through, nor do I pretend to.

However, have you had practical experience in running research studies on OSA patients? Do you agree that I have had practical experience in this regard?

I am getting a lot of people on here calling my ideas crazy. Fine, that's their opinion. But I bet that a number of them have had no practical experience in regards to constructing and running a research study. People has been suggesting that I have not taken on board their opinion. I disagree. I have taken everything on board. I have provided an alternative opinion based on my knowledge. However, I have said many times that my opinion is not 100% correct. Yet, some of the same people have said that they are RIGHT and dissmissing my own opinion. Once again, it's their choice. But they shouldn't suggest I have been doing the same thing because I don't think I have.

You are not hypothesizing that obesity (or belly fat) “causes” OSA but that indeed it “contributes” to it. If that is correct, I apologize for my statement that your hypothesis is outrageous … my bad.

Apology accepted. I think people have just been misinterpreting what I have said. I understand that there are many doctors out there who aren't helpful and think just because they have "Dr." in front of their name implies that are right and the patient is wrong. I have never, ever said I am better than a patient and that a patient is wrong. I agree that a lot of posters on this site have more knowledge about OSA than what I do. It's part of their life. However, that's not to say that I might know a bit more about some aspects of the physiology behind OSA. Would you agree?

I thought it was already known that being fat contributes to OSA (how do you get a PhD for a study on that?).

Being overweight can contribute to OSA. But as I have said many, many times, OSA is not confined to overweight people.

My one other observation however, is that you omitted a comparison to neck fat from your hypothesis.

We weren't looking at neck fat in my study because it has been done before. Neck fat has been shown to be a predictor of OSA. That's not to say there's a direct association between the two. Nevertheless, while it is a predictor, neck fat does not fully predict AHI. Therefore, there are likely to be other contributors to OSA. That's why I looked at whether increased pressure in the abdomen perhaps contributes to OSA.

It is far more complicated than eating too much sugar. You are going to have to use better arguments if you really want to win the pissing contest, S_C.

Ok, so I got one thing wrong. I have asked many other questions which are yet to be answered.

In the interest of throwing gas on the fire and watching the explosion, I agree with snoredog. Pretty much every split_city "revelation" i take with a heaping spoon of bullshit.

I havent seen someone dump that much bullshit on a place since back to the future.

Care to make comments to why my opinions are bulldust? Snoredog says that the flopping back of the tongue is the only cause of OSA. Do you agree? If so, why doesn't upper airway surgery always work? I can understand that the flopping back of the tongue is perhaps the cause when an OSA patient is on their back, but there are many OSA patient that have OSA in any position, even when in the prone position. How does the tongue "flop backwards" in this position. The tongue would need to be active to work against gravity when a subject is in this position.


To sum up:

1) I don't like it when I have been accused of things I didn't say

2) I'm not here to say I'm better than anybody on this forum. Far from it.
I'm only trying to provide answers to some of the questions that OSA patients have asked

3) I have taken on board other peoples' opinions. I have very rarely said that any of your opinions have been wrong. I may disagree with them based on personal experience, but have never said what the other person said is wrong. Nor have I called anybody crazy, DUMB, stupid etc. This is in contrast to what some of you have said about me.

4) My ideas might be crazy to some. I accept that. But I should be entitled to my opinion as well. I have provided detailed answers to why I have undertaken my studies. These ideas don't just pop up out of thin air. There are reasons to why we have undertaken them. Again, if you still think they are crazy, so be it. It would be nice to say why you think they are crazy instead of saying they are just bulldust

5) I'm not a clinician, nor do I pretend to be one. Just because I'm not a Dr, doesn't meant I don't know a bit about OSA. Research plays a vital role in educating the public. A lot of what is said by doctors is based on what research has provided.

Again, this is not an argument. However, I feel as though I have the right to reply given what has been said about me.

Thanks

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): CPAP, AHI

[jennmary]

You called her and me and others "silly" and not in a good way. Do not pretend you are a choir boy here who has no idea why people got the idea that you were being an ass.

You take only the opinions you want....then when proven wrong you simply say....So I got ONE wrong.

I agree that the tongue is not the only cause of OSA....but I disagree that this is snoredogs only thought. He and I have had a word or two and I dont always agree with everything he says......BUT I do believe he has valuble things to say and I have never seen him post that the tongue is the ONLY OSA issue. Maybe it is for him....I dont know.

You are entitled to defend yourself.....but she never said it was you. Other people figured that out because of your own asinine behavior.
Why is it that every one.....not just snoredog....thinks that you instigate fights and that everything you say is bullshit? Is it that you a poor misunderstood soul? No....its because you are blind to your own condescending attitude and your penchant for stiring up trouble. Trust me, and ask others on the board....I am a trouble maker (be nice guys) so I can spot one a mile away.

You are like a used car salesman....you see we arent buying yet you keep on calling to tell us about the great used 86 accord you have on the lot. Its a real steal....and only 12 owners and 7 accidents. I bet you even have a comb over and a dorky clip on tie.

Here I am peeing on the thread too......sorry Jen

[WillSucceed]

Jennmary wrote:

Why is it that every one.....not just snoredog....thinks that you instigate fights and that everything you say is bullshit? Is it that you a poor misunderstood soul? No....its because you are blind to your own condescending attitude and your penchant for stiring up trouble. Trust me, and ask others on the board....I am a trouble maker (be nice guys) so I can spot one a mile away.

Jennmary, it is inappropriate for any of us to presume to speak for everyone else on the board. You can absolutely speak for yourself, but you don't speak for "every one."

I'm not saying that I agree, or disagree with what you, Snoredog, or anyone else has to say; I'm not taking sides in this thread. I just strongly believe in the principle that each of us speaks for him or herself and that no one has the right to make statements for "everyone" else.

[split_city]

You called her and me and others "silly" and not in a good way. Do not pretend you are a choir boy here who has no idea why people got the idea that you were being an ass.

So, I guess we should all just hang up our hoses, because apnea isn't hurting us anyway?

That's just being silly. I never said anything like that! I never said apnea doesn't cause those co-morbidities. I said you can't definatively say that the apnea causes these co-morbidities in overweight people because these co-morbidities are commom in overweight people to begin with

My AHI was at 42. So I guess all of the equipment, the sleep tech, the nurse practitioner, the sleep doc and my GP are all wrong and you are right. You must be the smartest man alive.....forget medical school....we should crown you the almighty SA king. Wanna do a UPPP on me? Maybe write me a new script for an auto or nifty bipap machine?

That's just being silly now. I have never ever said I am 100% correct in what I say. I purely was discussing my obervations.

I never said Jem or you were silly. I said it was silly to say what you both said. The comments were said in a sarcastic manner. Was I suppose to agree with what you said? Do you honestly think I would tell any OSA patient to hang up their hoses because apnea isn't hurting anybody?

You take only the opinions you want....then when proven wrong you simply say....So I got ONE wrong.

Please provide me with links

I agree that the tongue is not the only cause of OSA....but I disagree that this is snoredogs only thought. He and I have had a word or two and I dont always agree with everything he says......BUT I do believe he has valuble things to say and I have never seen him post that the tongue is the ONLY OSA issue. Maybe it is for him....I dont know.

man I hate to burst your PhD learning bubble, but OSA is mainly the tongue falling into the back of the throat, not the airway collapsing due to fat around the neck or diaphragm pressure. That's why it is worse on your back than your side.

Ok, so Snoredog said that the flopping back of the tongue is the main cause for airway collapse (no-one really knows that for sure). Nevertheless, he shot my idea down without providing any reason to why he would think my study wasn't plausible. I provided some extra information which he chose to ignore, while others were interested. Like I said, I don't mind when people think my ideas are crazy. I am interested to know why they think they are crazy. I never said that the beer belly caused OSA, nor did I say that my hypothesis is right. The results from my study suggest that increased pressure might be a contributor. I'm very keen on hearing feedback because it helps everyone in the end.

Oh, and I understand that Snoredog provides a great deal of valuable information, as does the rest of this community (apart from the spammers! )

That Nancy thread drew heated discussion because Nancy didn't back her thoughts up. It was an uneducated quess on her behalf. A lot of you have quite rightly so sent emails wanting Nancy to explain herself. Like I said, some people have called my ideas crazy. I never said they were silly or stupid to say those things. I just asked if they could provide information to why they think my ideas are crazy. Just like what you have been doing in regards to what Nancy said

You are entitled to defend yourself.....but she never said it was you.

That's why I asked if it was said in reference to me. Given that the thread really was talking about me, I had the right to assume the comment was directed towards me.

Whether it was in reference to me or not, there were untruthful accusations said about me. Is this fair?

Why is it that every one.....not just snoredog....thinks that you instigate fights and that everything you say is bullshit?

Is it really everyone? Many posters have been interested in what I have had to say. They have wished me luck in my research. The ones which have said that my opinions and ideas are bullshit are generally the ones which haven't informed me why they think they are bullshit. Obviously they have a reason for saying so, why don't they want to say it?

You are like a used car salesman....you see we arent buying yet you keep on calling to tell us about the great used 86 accord you have on the lot. Its a real steal....and only 12 owners and 7 accidents.

I never said I wanted you to accept (or sell you) my ideas. I'm not forcing anyone to accept them. If you don't agree with them, so be it. There are groups out there suggesting that mobile phone towers cause cancer. I am unconvinced because of inconclusive data. However, I'm purely running them by you all to let you know what research is being conducted in the field of OSA. Don't OSA patients want to know more about their disorder? Aren't OSA patients getting sick and tired of being told to lose weight if they want to cure their OSA? While my current studies do focus on obesity and OSA, it doesn't mean I'm not aware of other studies looking at OSA in healthy-weight individuals, nor does it mean I'm entirely focussed on the beer belly link." Again, call them crazy if if you must, but it's nice to hear why you think they are crazy. I'm not going to say you are are wrong with your reasons why. I glady accept praise or criticism. It's part of my job. However, when people criticise my work, they generally provide a reason why they think it's bulldust. Few (if any) on this website have.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): bipap, AHI, auto

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): bipap, AHI, auto

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): bipap, AHI, auto

[WillSucceed]

Hey Babette!!!
Can I join the Crabby Broads Club too? I think you are going to have tons-o-fun!

[jennmary]

I apologize Will.....I truely do. I should not have use the word everyone. That was very very wrong. I do not usually presume to speak for everyone...and I hope you will forgive this slip. I can see that for some I will be reminded of it again and again. But I honestly hope that you will accept my apology.

I will revise that to myself and others. Does that work?

I really am sorry.

[WillSucceed]

Thanks for commenting, Jennmary... it's all good.

[jennmary]

Ok.....I will start with one of the reasons I think your study is retarted and go from there.


I have been anorexic, overweight, normal weight, pregnant and just about anything else in between. None of those things feels or acts at all like putting on a belt to tight. I promise you this. I guess if you want to know what it feels like to be fat you could always just put a band accross your stomach. Also.....since being fat causes sooooo many other things and changes things like stomach (the organ) size, as well as blood pressure and pulse rate, you are really not getting any usable data in regards to true obesity and OSA. This is only a small part of why I think your experiment is stupid.

But I will make you an offer I made someone else recently. It will help you to better understand apnea.

I volunteer to hold a pillow over your face 42 times and hour, every hour, while you sleep. I will do this for a month. At the end of that month you can attempt to drive, and hold an intellegent conversation, also....you can try to carry on a relationship or go on a date. Maybe 2 months.
Then you can go on CPAP at a pressure of 14...maybe higher, with a full face mask. I will still put the pillow over your face....but only 4 times an hour, and I will make sure to do it a few extra times every once in a while to simulate a "bad" night.
Then you multiply how shitty you feel by about 100....as many of us have done this for wayyyyyyy longer than a month. While we are at it....you can wear a fat suit for the entire month or two....so you can also see how hard it is to carry it around after sleep deprivation.


I am always there to offer a helping hand...I am just giving that way.