CPAP toxic off-gas

[daveweiser]

Unfortunately I have developed a major chemical sensitivity since 9/11 (I live in Manhattan). Prior to that I could suck down fumes with the best of them (dry cleaning, acetone, lacquer, gasoline, diesel exhaust...you name it). But now these odors make me pretty sick.

So when it comes to new CPAP machines, I understand that strong chemical odors that are present are supposed to disappear in time. However, I am more concerned with the origin of the odors.

I have tried two new CPAP machines and masks. Both machines gave off strong chemical odors. One mask was intolerable. I gave my nephew a whiff of both machines and he confirmed that they smelled like a "tire shop". In fact I called one major manufacturer to find out just what the foam pre-filter was made of ...no response so far.

My point is that I believe these machines are made with plastics, synthetic rubbers & foams that seem to be be off-gas ing toxic chemicals at high doses directly into our lungs and doing all kinds of damage. These odor are similar to new carpets. The carpet industry has been actively addressing the toxic off gas situation in recent years.

I understand that we live in toxic times and most people just "get over it" and I'm sure plenty people out here will mockingly tell me to do the same. In fact I have yet to find other users with the same complaint...at least not online.

So if there are others out here who have a similar concern, I would like to here from you.

[Guest]

You know odors will go after a Month or less...

May be a sollution for you is to start the machine alone each days without using it and let the odors go... And after you judge it is tollerable you could begin to use it!?

[NightHawkeye]

Hi Dave. Welcome to the forum!

In general, I agree with your assessment of the outgassing. In my own case, I am chemically sensitive and the first night on a new machine does bother me. I managed to get through the first night though (three times now), and after that first night the odors haven't been a concern to me. I suffer a lot more damage without my APAP than with it, so I guess you could say I simply choose the lesser of two evils.

It probably wouldn't be a great expense for the manufacturers to make the primary offending components from stainless steel, but I'm sure it would cause a noticeable price increase, so I doubt that any one manufacturer will do it on their own.

Regards,
Bill

[Snoredog]

seems to me you may be stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

if you don't use the machine and treat your OSA, you will probably die much sooner or develop cardiovascular disease much sooner than you would breathing in some fumes from plastic off-gassing.

do you have ANY scientific evidence that this off-gassing by the plastic used in these machines will kill you sooner than untreated OSA would?

My suggestion: Shoot up some OTC nasal sprays for several years, that will ruin your ability to smell then the off-gassing becomes a non-issue in my opinion.

[SleepGuy]

Sleepy-Eyes worked in the plastics industry for 27 years and found himself in the same position. He posted this on a recent thread:

I may not have mentioned to the forum before, but I was in the plastic business for 27 years. With that much exposure I'm almost allergic to much of the materials and their emissions. In fact, I finally had to make a hose cover yesterday because the hose was causing a rash on my body where it touched. So any plastisol or resin odors just drive me up the wall. I much appreciate the new fragrances made available by Pur-Sleep. At this point, I love it. Couldn't recommend it more.

Here's the thread: viewtopic.php?t=17617&postdays=0&postor ... l&start=15

Now in the interest of complete and full disclosure, I am the person behind pur-sleep. However, Sleepy-Eyes has nothing to do with it and I thought his experience might be relevant to this thread. The products seem to have helped him overcome his sensitivity to the plastics.

[kteague]

Hi. I too am sensitive to many chemicals and scents since a toxic formaldehyde exposure (spill) damaged my lungs in 1983 while working in a lab. My reaction is quite recognizable as I have bronchial spasms with difficulty breathing and uncontrollable coughing. I don't remember doing this with my first machine for more than a couple days, and it was mild. My second machine was used and there were no problems. I noticed it just a little with new masks.

This off-gassing topic is of interest to me. Will be watching the thread. Just never thought about it before. Guess I've been too caught up in the OSA aspect of breathing, but I'd better pay attention to everything since the docs say 25% of my lungs is no longer functioning. Thanks for bringing up the subject.

Kathy

[daveweiser]

Thanks everybody for responding so soon, especially those with chemical sensitivities. From the responses so far, we see the following.

1) Given the dangers related to sleep apnea, we have to make a hard choice. In other words, we are so desperate we will choose the lesser of 2 evils...which leads to ...

2) The manufacturers know how desperate we are so they make little or no effort to deal with the toxic off-gas issue. "Deal with the issue" means spending $$ on less offensive materials and continuing to use cheaper more dangerous materials.

3) People haven't given this issue much thought because they are relieved to just get some sleep and adjusting to toxins have become second nature to us.


4) Chemical sensitivity is VERY REAL and is usually caused by OVEREXPOSURE to chemicals.( It has been speculated that the body is over saturated with toxic chemicals and it can no longer process new ones).

5) Symptom chasing remedies to deal with the problem include masking the symptoms with other odors or dulling the nasal sensors with chemicals (nasal sprays) that destroy the nasal membranes and create addiction to dangerous sprays.

I checked the FDA site and there are absolutely NO considerations when it come to material selection for these machines. I will be in touch with The American Lung Association to see if they have any interest. I honestly believe that if enough consumers bring up the issue something can & will be done. These machines need to be tested for off-gassing just like dry cleaners , mattresses and carpets etc..

We Americans spend millions of dollars trying to clean up the air in their homes with filters, ionizers, ozone generators etc. so obviously air purity is a major concern for us. We buy gas masks for paint & lacquer fumes, pesticides and other harmful chemicals. Yet it is amazing that the CPAP is a medical device that may very well be delivering toxins directly into the pulmonary system that end up in our bloodstream and organs. Those of us with chemical sensitivities are truly on the front line because we sense the onslaught up front and it makes us sicker much sooner.

[blarg]

I just wanted to state the obvious.

1) Make sure you're actually getting a new machine. Some DMEs spray nasty gook on the inside of the machines to sterilize them. You might be smelling that.
2) Some masks (Most notibly the Comfort Gel from my collection) smell REALLY bad. Try a different mask. When you get a new mask, separate the parts if you're willing to take it apart and set them in front of a fan.
3) Wash the mask parts with some baby shampoo.
4) Rinse out your hose. Diluted vinegar would be good.
5) Run the machine for a while to move air through the system. I'd recommend putting tape over nasal pillows openings and plastic wrap over a nasal mask (but NOT the vent holes) to allow the machine to operate basically normally but move some air through the whole system.

If you still smell it, you might try masking it with Pur Sleep.
http://www.pur-sleep.com

Note: I have no connection with pur sleep whatsoever and don't even use their products, but others have had good things to say so I thought I'd mention it.

[birdshell]

Not only are the chemical sensitivities a concern, I was very surprised to learn that there are parts of our packages that are make of rubber. With the number of latex/rubber sensitivities suffered by so many more of our population, it is amazing to me that even a portion of a newly designed machine, hose, or mask would be constructed of rubber.

As a teacher of physical education for over 30 years, I noticed that it was not just I who was seeking non-rubber basketballs, non-latex resistance bands, latex-free elastic in some products, and so on. The prevalence and availability of such products in the past ten years has been very significant.

If there is a true allergy present, wouldn't exposure to other chemicals or substances increase the reaction or possibility of developing new allergies? I don't know about that. I do know that the students whose parents had latex sensitivities deserved to have their exposure to rubber and latex products limited as much as possible to avoid the travails of their parents. This was also a consideration in sending students home with the rubber/latex particles on their clothing. Two of my students had to, as another teacher expressed it, go through a car wash before entering their own home.

We should all be avoiding as many chemicals as possible.

[rachael778]

My health care provider gave me a suggestion when I mentioned the subject. Here is her recommendation, and it has worked for me:

Use 6 parts water (I used R/O), with 1 part distilled vinegar.
Soak item .
When I asked her how long, she said something like "forever"

My new hybrid mask had such an odour, unlike my Swift. So before using it night before last, on the that day, I soaked my mask in the solution for approx. 3-4 hours, rinsed well. Voila! No odour.

No offence meant, but I'd prefer to get the odour out, instead of masking (no pun intended) it with another odour, no matter how lovely.

rachael

[Guest]

why not turn off whatever auto off features may be on the machine and run it during the day until the smell is gone when you put it on at night? It will up the hours on the machine, but may solve the problem. I had the smell for about three days when I got my current machine in August 06.

TM

[crystalhelix]

Thanks everybody for responding so soon, especially those with chemical sensitivities. From the responses so far, we see the following.

1) Given the dangers related to sleep apnea, we have to make a hard choice. In other words, we are so desperate we will choose the lesser of 2 evils...which leads to ...

-you would obviously want to continue therapy..

2) The manufacturers know how desperate we are so they make little or no effort to deal with the toxic off-gas issue. "Deal with the issue" means spending $$ on less offensive materials and continuing to use cheaper more dangerous materials.

-it is a concern, do you think if the off-gas was toxic the FDA would allow it, xPAP machines and devices are FDA regulated and the FDA is pretty good about finding things out while investigating, I don't know what to say about cost other than the main driver for cost would more likely be electronic components than plastic or foam parts.. ..

3) People haven't given this issue much thought because they are relieved to just get some sleep and adjusting to toxins have become second nature to us.

-I inhale more toxins sitting in traffic for 1 hour than sleeping on my PAP device..

4) Chemical sensitivity is VERY REAL and is usually caused by OVEREXPOSURE to chemicals.( It has been speculated that the body is over saturated with toxic chemicals and it can no longer process new ones).

-I suggest what others have said about odor removing techniques although I would definately not suggest submerging a cpap machine, lol..

5) Symptom chasing remedies to deal with the problem include masking the symptoms with other odors or dulling the nasal sensors with chemicals (nasal sprays) that destroy the nasal membranes and create addiction to dangerous sprays.

-I don't agree with sprays either....

I checked the FDA site and there are absolutely NO considerations when it come to material selection for these machines. I will be in touch with The American Lung Association to see if they have any interest. I honestly believe that if enough consumers bring up the issue something can & will be done. These machines need to be tested for off-gassing just like dry cleaners , mattresses and carpets etc..

-not sure what to say about this other than maybe the FDA site isn't the place to go, maybe forward the question through your DME..

We Americans spend millions of dollars trying to clean up the air in their homes with filters, ionizers, ozone generators etc. so obviously air purity is a major concern for us. We buy gas masks for paint & lacquer fumes, pesticides and other harmful chemicals. Yet it is amazing that the CPAP is a medical device that may very well be delivering toxins directly into the pulmonary system that end up in our bloodstream and organs. Those of us with chemical sensitivities are truly on the front line because we sense the onslaught up front and it makes us sicker much sooner.

-my allergist actually does not reccoment the ionizers, I too have a hypersensitive nose, the only thing my nose is good for is telling if my car has coolant leak..lol..

CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): CPAP, clean

[kteague]

No answers, just more "Hmmmms"

Is the new machine smell merely offensive or harmful? If just offensive, cover it up.

If one has chemical sensitivities, covering it up does not eliminate it, so doesn't it seem there would still be a reaction to its presence? Is the reaction to the smell or the cause of the smell?

If harmful, does eliminating the smell mean off-gassing is no longer happening?

Kathy

[SleepGuy]

Just to provide some additional support for those upset at the xPAP manufacturers (and the FDA) for putting us between a rock and a hard place here, but there's a lot more to the question of plastic exposures in xPAP equipment than perhaps people know.

Turns out that polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is the most common plastic used to make medical equipment, including xPAP. PVC is brittle at room temperature and so [un]healthy amounts of plasticizers, primarily a substance called DEHP is used to make the PVC soft. Everyone is familiar with the clear plastic tubing used for IVs, blood bags, cpap tubing--that's PVC with up to 80% DEHP.

DEHP is not bonded to the PVC and starts to volatilize immediately and continues to release over time. According to the FDA:

"DEHP has been shown to produce a wide range of adverse effects in experimental animals, notably liver toxicity and testicular atrophy. Although toxic adn carcinogenic effects of DEHP have been well established in experimental animals, the ability of this compound to produce adverse effects in humans is controversial."

Safety Assessment of Di(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) Released from PVC Medical Devices (http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/ost/dehp-pvc.pdf). There are a lot of other goodies in that report if anyone cares to read it. I consider the FDA's response to this to be token--they are simply encouragnig manufacturers to transition to other materials despite the known exposures, risks, and issues.

Some other sources I found ranked xPAP therapy as posing "moderate" risks from phthalate exposures. The docs seem to be particularly concerned about neonates and children on xPAP (as they should be) but what about the rest of us?

Truth be told, there are a number of alternative materials that do not contain phthalates that would certainly be suitable for xPAP hosing and masks, including teflon, silicone, and urethane. But these cost more and manufacturers don't want this to impact their profit margins.

Aside from the medical risks there are also the smells to deal with. People are much more sensitive to smells than most people realize, with pronounced psychological and physiolgical responses (good and bad) regularly occurring even when the odor is below conscious detection threshhold. The plastisol smells are known to be irritants and I'm convinced that they are responsible for me waking up every morning at 2 am wanting to smash my cpap to pieces with a hammer and never being able to put it back on. I'm glad that's not a problem for me anymore.

[Alisha]

crystalhelix wrote:

" -it is a concern, do you think if the off-gas was toxic the FDA would allow it, xPAP machines and devices are FDA regulated and the FDA is pretty good about finding things out while investigating,"

I hope you are joking. Or do you not buy the opinion that the FDA is in bed with the drug manufacturers and others they "regulate?"

SleepGuy wrote:

"Truth be told, there are a number of alternative materials that do not contain phthalates that would certainly be suitable for xPAP hosing and masks, including teflon, silicone, and urethane. But these cost more and manufacturers don't want this to impact their profit margins."

I don't know anything about urethane, but I do know that the silicone seals in masks causes pain and damage to my face. I've read many articles about the harmful effects of teflon, such as the following:

http://www.mercola.com/2007/jan/16/the- ... tinues.htm

It seems that everything that is helpful or useful is also harmful. I do remain optimistic, though.

Regards,

Alisha