Drbandage

[sam-s]

Question: Will we now make a renewed attempt to get along with other?

I read this recently and wondered if some of it might pertain to the issues discussed in this thread:

The problems with many adults when dealing with others aren’t performance issues. They are social issues.

People just can’t get along with each other. Many are easily hurt and offended, emotional, petty, jealous, spiteful, sensitive and unforgiving. In other words, many people are still emotionally immature.

[roster]

sam-s: Isn't this the fundamental fault of the human species? Every single one of us is desperately insecure (see Genesis 3:9-10). Some do a great job of covering up the insecurity and some don't. At least that's what a minister's radio sermon convinced me while I was driving last week. - rooster

[sam-s]

You are right, rooster. No matter how strong we are physically, we can have frail egos.

We may all at times be "hurt and offended, emotional, petty, jealous, spiteful, sensitive and unforgiving," but when we learn to forgive, the other emotions also become less problematic for us.

Forgiveness is the most important lesson I have learned in this lifetime, and I, too, learned it from a sermon. In that sermon almost 33 years ago, I learned that praying for the offender gives us the ability to forgive them. This learned preacher said to pray for God to bless the one who has hurt us every time we think of him/her and/or the offense. If the hurt is really bad, we may have to pray for them a hundred or more times a day at first. So be it, what we gain is worth the effort. It relieves the hurt and removes any spite or bitterness that may have begun.

Forgiveness is for ourselves and helps "us"; it does not necessarily help or change the other individual. He/she may lash out at us again. We then put him/her in God's hands again and again ask God to bless this person.

For anyone who holds unforgiveness in his/her heart, has tried unsuccessfully to forgive, and sincerely wants to forgive, I highly recommend the above. A brief, silent prayer as we work or go about our business is always heard by God.

[Vader]

Hello Sam-s, if you fill out your profile, we can probably address whatever OSA concerns that you may have.

[Guest]

My mind runs back to times I have posted complaints about my interactions with specific doctors in the course of seeking help for my long-standing sleep disorders. While I don't have time right now to go back and re-read them, I am just hoping I kept my remarks targeted. I know I'll make it a point to in the future.

In 18 years working in the medical field, I certainly couldn't paint all the docs I encountered with one broad brush, because like every other profession, they are respresentative of the rest society, with all our personalities, abilities, and bents.

The thing about this forum is that so many have ended up here because a doctor or series of medical professionals (RT, DME, etc) had not given them the help they needed in regards to their sleep apnea. So it may be that the general audience is a bit jaded (or maybe I should say enlightened) about shortcomings, especially in the arena of sleep disorders. Could be it's a tough-sell audience in this respect, as those shortcomings have been up close and personal and been detrimental to lifestyles, careers, and even lives. I am in that camp, but I am well aware of how much I don't know, and value the expertise that comes with education and training as well as with experience. I came here to learn how to help myself.

As did Sam_S. I suggest you start a thread about your difficulties so your need doesn't get lost in all this discussion. (I started typing this an hour ago but got diverted so someone may have already said that.)

Kathy

[stoverquill]

Quote:

"Let's play nice"

[NightHawkeye]

So it may be that the general audience is a bit jaded (or maybe I should say enlightened) about shortcomings, especially in the arena of sleep disorders. Could be it's a tough-sell audience in this respect, as those shortcomings have been up close and personal and been detrimental to lifestyles, careers, and even lives. I am in that camp, but I am well aware of how much I don't know, and value the expertise that comes with education and training as well as with experience. I came here to learn how to help myself.

I certainly agree with your assessment, Kathy, as far as it goes.

However, while I may be a bit jaded, I also look at the medical industry as a whole, not necessarily particular doctors, some of whom I know personally and like just fine as people. My main issue, in a nutshell, is that I don't see within the medical industry much impetus at all to advance in the very fundamental aspects of cost reduction, or diagnostic thoroughness, both of which are front and center in this forum. Not only is the cost of sleep apnea diagnosis expensive, but after the initial diagnosis, generally little or no additional diagnostic effort is expended to help patients with their therapy. That's why so many folks come here - to self-diagnose and get resolution for the problems which they've been unable to get physicians to help them with.

Many industries learn significant lessons from their mistakes. Does that happen within the medical industry? I don't see that it does, but perhaps that's too broad a brush for this forum. Perhaps, by restricting my remarks to the sleep portion of the medical industry, I can make my point better. In the sleep apnea industry, it's as if the entire industry is stuck somewhere else. (Insert appropriate euphamism here.) With less than 50% patient compliance, I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise. The machine manufacturers aren't focused on patients. The DME's certainly aren't - for the most part they are focused on profits at the expense of therapy. And the sleep docs themselves generally come across as ignorant on very fundamental aspects of this therapy.

I don't say any of this to insult anybody, not Tumbleweed, not drbandage, certainly not my own sleep doc. While I'm sure some folks won't agree with me, I just happen to believe that sleep apnea diagnosis can be and should be much less expensive than it is now - a simple oximeter can diagnose so much - and that therapy compliance can be and should be much much higher than it is now. I also happen to believe that both of these objectives could easily change, literally overnight, if motivations within the medical industry changed.

So that's the long version of my opinion which I usually abbreviate, and which in abbreviated form seems to cause some folks distress. (Sorry about that.)

Regards,
Bill ( . . . stepping off soapbox)

[Offerocker]

One thing may help in responses, is to be specific to whom we are responding. Sometimes the 'previous poster' may take offense not intended.

I'm wondering just how long it will take before any of us will see a 'specialty' section in the telephone book for APNEA!
There are dozens of specialties listed, with many doctors listed for those specialties.
There 'may' be a sleep lab, but not in my phone book!

We are witnessing this in its infancy - yet, far too late.

I think the current discussion needs to focus solely (and be interpreted as such) on sleep apnea - concerning patients and the medical profession, with extensions to DMEs and RTs and Sleep Labs. Anything other than those specifics (including those I've omitted) need to be ignored as 'not intended'. In my humble opinion. As humans, we think in many directions, but for this forum, need to retain focus.

[dsm]

And I suppose the other party was totally without blame? I sort of thought that having an ACTUAL MD who was also a fellow hoser was a BENIFIT to this board. But some other lay folks think they know better and have chased a valuable resource away. I too, used to post more here, also being a doctor, but the same know-it-all disgusted me some months ago by his crude stereotyping of the medical community, including myself, whom he doesn't even know! I was offended and have said little since. Fine. If our help is not desired then just keep it up and you can all go with non-medically trained "experts". Many of them do have good knowledge, don't get me wrong, but they lack the ability to understand all the physiology and medical basis behind it. Some of us DO want to help and are NOT interested in the money, but many of you think we are practically the "scum of the earth" from the way you talk about us. I don't need that. I'll take my help elsewhere if that is the way this board wants to treat medical professionals.

TW

I promise you there are many people here who are very keen to have input from Doctors. I was dissapointed to see Dr Bandage get so distressed by comments from one or so others but forums can be tough - but, as forums go, this one isn't that bad.

I would like to add more re letting some comments flow by but don't quite know how to put the point.

Please do feel appreciated & please do stay & add value.

DSM

[blarg]

My main issue, in a nutshell, is that I don't see within the medical industry much impetus at all to advance in the very fundamental aspects of cost reduction, or diagnostic thoroughness, both of which are front and center in this forum.

Ok, so what would you have them do? Vaguely saying "Things need to change." is one thing, but actually fixing them is another. The reason I don't think you see much impetus to advance in this direction in the medical community is that it's largely pointless to have impetus without an end goal.

One can't really sustain impetus with no direction, so what direction should they be pushing in? (And "reform" is very vague as well. I'm just curious as to your specific suggestions as to how they could fix it.)

[Julie]

How about 'sensitivity' training sessions like police get regarding women, and minorities - so at least when you go to see them, the worst reactions are kept to a minimum with respect to not being flippant about apnea, or as incredibly ignorant as some come across? How about even one day mandatory sessions where they can at least get a real overview about what the numbers mean, and learn to appreciate the software and patients who use it, rather than treating us like idiots? And/or another day really learning about equipment, pros and cons, just enough so that they have some appreciation of what goes on, and can better intercede on our behalf with DME's and insce. companies?

[blarg]

As a gay man, I can tell you right this instant that if we're going down the sensitivity training route, then there are many many areas in the medical world that need to be addressed long before we ever begin to touch sleep apnea.

[NightHawkeye]

Ok, so what would you have them do? Vaguely saying "Things need to change." is one thing, but actually fixing them is another. . . .
One can't really sustain impetus with no direction, so what direction should they be pushing in? (And "reform" is very vague as well. I'm just curious as to your specific suggestions as to how they could fix it.)

I'm glad you asked that question, Blarg. (Seriously!)
1) Customer demand for change: (I do what I can to get the word out.) One of the most important contributors to change in any industry is customers who demand improvements. We see the results of it on this forum daily on an individual basis. I'll avoid mentioning folks by name here, but just about daily people come to this forum desparate for answers because they've been neglected by their health care providers and simply haven't gotten the service or attention they need to resolve their individual issues. They receive detailed answers here and, more importantly, they get powerful ammunition to begin attacking their individual problems. Quite often, sadly, that means direct confrontation with their health care providers.
2) Realization of a need for change: This is customer driven. One of the real services provided by this forum is opening the eyes of folks who come here. It does little good to tell folks to simply trust their physicians and meekly ask for advice. Plenty of evidence here indicates the contrary to be true. Folks do much better if they go fully armed and explicitly tell their physicians what they expect (for example, an APAP prescription).
3) Personal responsibility for one's own health care: (You knew this was coming, didn't you.) See both items above.

So maybe you were hoping I'd offer some broad advice for physicians . . . (as if they'd listen to me . . . Ha!) No, I believe that change starts on a personal level (and I have no real desire to tilt at windmills). For the sake of discussion though, my opinion is that the health care industry could benefit immensely from the same feedback mechanisms which have revolutionized manufacturing. Focusing on cost effectivity, for instance, would be useful. An example is oximeters. Oximeters could very inexpensively diagnose more apnea patients than is ever going to happen with PSG's alone. (That's just one example which stands out prominently.)

Hopefully, I've answered your question, Blarg. On a personal note, I believe that discussion of these issues is one of the most important things which happens on this forum, and I do wish the value it provides was more widely understood.

Regards,
Bill

[blarg]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

[Elle]

Are we slagging sleep specialists or GPs? I find my GP refers me when she doesn't know an area of medicine well. My sleep specialist, who is a respirologist, is very knowledgeable and is a good advocate.