Thought I had back sleeping problem but turns out it's rem sleep disorder

[Miss Emerita]

I've been intrigued by the Dreem but can't figure out whether it'd have the right fit on my head given the locations of my mask straps. And then there's the price....

[Rob K]

I've been intrigued by the Dreem but can't figure out whether it'd have the right fit on my head given the locations of my mask straps. And then there's the price....

Yes, exactly my thoughts. The reasons I haven't made the purchase yet. Thinking long and hard on this one. They claim the Dreem 2 was tested and is supposed to be 90% as accurate as eeg in a lab. That is very good for a consumer device for home use; the best that I have heard of. I'm exploring getting an old video camera from someone first before possibly buying a Dreem 2.

[Rob K]

Just read about ambulatory eeg devices that the doctor sends you home with for monitoring away from the lab. I see there is the Contac KT88 for around $700 and the head gear looks sort of medieval. I'm sure something of quality is a better and a lot more costly.

The Dreem 2 seems far more appealing in form and cost after looking at other devices.

[MeToo]

I have to sleep on my side as well and initially had great difficulty doing so. The best technique for me is to have two buckwheat pillows stacked on top of each other snugly positioned on each side of me. They are dense enough to keep me from rolling over. In the winter, I use my wife as the bolster on one side.

Then, and this was key for me, I bought a tempurpedic* mattress. By easing the pressure points -- which is what memory foam is great at -- I can stay in one position for a very long time. Rolling over and repositioning requires waking up with my strategy. I also use an empty jug of distilled water to pee into -- getting out of the bed in my arrangement is an endeavor.

*I've had mine for 15 years and it is approaching the time for a replacement. I'm exploring less expensive memory foam mattress options and I might buy one of those, but the Tempurpedic has been tremendous.

[Rob K]

I had to go to a memory foam mattress many years ago since it became painful to sleep on anything harder. I also have a pillow top over that. Super soft. Had to do it for the reasons you mention, relieving pressure.

[weiss27md]

Any luck with staying sleeping on your side? I seem to get the best sleep when I sleep on my side but the problem is staying on my side. I've been doing research on the natural sleep position for humans and I don't think it is on our backs. It just doesn't make sense. If you were outside and slept on the ground you would not just fall asleep on your back. You would sleep on your side and there are different variants of that. Like fetal, recovery, etc.

[TiredGuy009]

I notice when trying to sleep on the side the mask always leaks

[weiss27md]

I notice when trying to sleep on the side the mask always leaks

Same issue here too. I tried with P10s and N20s, always get leaks just when laying on side. Don't know what to do because they say don't tighten your mask too much.

[zonker]

I notice when trying to sleep on the side the mask always leaks

Same issue here too. I tried with P10s and N20s, always get leaks just when laying on side. Don't know what to do because they say don't tighten your mask too much.

i found that i had to learn to sleep on the very edge of my pillow, with the p10 hanging over the edge so i didn't disturb it in the night.

[Rob K]

Yes have to sleep on the edge of the pillow with mask over the edge to prevent leaks.

So far I've only had some faulty experiments. I tried putting some pillows and blankets around me but that didn't work. I move around way to much when I'm sleeping and end up pushing them away. I've had very little time and energy to think this all through. Wishing I had more time for studying and experimenting. My two jobs have been so busy, had 2 days off work in nearly a month and a half. So working pretty much 7 days a week. Unfortunately my progress with all this is at a snails pace. With the Covid and work I haven't even been to the grocery store in like 5 weeks.

[Sheffey]

I was just reviewing the data from my polysomnography from 5 years ago. It shows periodic limb movements during N3 deep sleep stage only. Movements were present both with and without cpap. I suspect these movements have gotten worse. Whether it's deep sleep or rem stage it seems they are a problem now or likely always have been and that's why I've never felt rested for years.

You seem to be chasing a lot of things, but ignoring this issue which may be your primary problem.

Anecdotally, RLS has gotten worse for me as I age. Finding the right drug/dosage can be a challenge. A family doctor with patience has done the best for me.

[Rob K]

Sheffey
RLS means you also have problems while you are awake. I don't have RLS symptoms. The problems I'm having are only while I'm asleep which is why they have been so hard to figure out for several years. I do have PLM's while sleeping to some degree which is why I am studying on what to do; it seems to be excessive. It's enough to move me from side sleeping to my back every hour or so and wake me up consistently throughout the night.

What medications do you have to take for RLS?

[Rob K]

ChicagoGranny mentioned that blocks of erratic breathing could be sleep wake junk. For me erratic breathing lasts for a total of like 3-4 hours every night. I wake 6-8 times every night, occasionally more and almost never less than that. I'm awake just long enough to turn on my side, adjust things and right back to sleep. I guess it could be all SWJ which would mean I'm roused from sleep way more than I realize.

Still working on getting a video camera.

I also just remembered that for both of my sleep studies I had to take 10mg of Ambien otherwise they would have not been able to collect any data. Actually I had three sleep studies, because the first was a failure when I only slept about 1 hour or so. So for the next two I was medicated. I wonder if the docs missed the severity of the PLM's since I was medicated both nights in the lab. PLM's did show in the data, but possibly were suppressed. What can you tell from two nights of data, possibly not much.

The experiment tonight will be interesting. I took two pillows, folded them in half inside the pillow case and put one on each side of me. I'll be laying on the empty side of the pillow case. We'll see if those end up scattered about by morning.

[Rob K]

Another failed pillow experiment. Still waking a lot and moving a bunch while I'm sleeping. Even though I'm laying on the pillow cases they end up all over the place and still end up on my back. Maybe putting them under the bed sheet would work. Have been waking more with this configuration and body is aching quite a bit due to having very restless nights. Thinking limiting sleep position is not the answer, but it's worth seeing what happens with it.

[Rob K]

Finally a large breakthrough. For all of you who offered help, sorry it took so long for me to make progress on this.

Finally was able to borrow a surveillance camera system and set up two cameras on my bed. Unbelievable how many times I wake and change position. Most of the spikes and large shifts on my Somnopose body position chart are wake ups or arousal's. How many more arousal's are not showing up on the body position monitor and camera. From what I can see on camera and looking at the chart I woke at least 30 times last night and changed position. In the morning I only remember waking maybe 6-8 times, occasionally I'll remember more. This has been happening every night for nearly a decade, even through my sleep studies. Not sure why the docs didn't pick up on that. Maybe two nights in a lab is not enough, or didn't show up, or it has gotten worse, or because I was drugged to be able sleep with all the equipment, or bad doctors, or broken system.

No wonder I've felt so bad and had so many health problems all these years.
I feel better since starting xpap like 7-8 years ago but never totally recovered and now I think I know why.

Seen twitching legs on camera occasionally, but it was minimal so it's not periodic limb movement disorder.
'
No twitchy legs while I'm awake so it's not restless legs syndrome.

Back sleeping is not the main problem, but doesn't help.

So the main problem is REM stage sleep disorder. My sleep studies show apnea being probably 5x times worse during REM stage.

During REM stage:
Breathing gets very erratic from looking at Oscar flow rate
I assume the machine is taking care of a lot of apnea events at that time
Still getting a lot of events that last 8-10 seconds
AHI is under 1 nearly all the time and those events are false positives from arousal's
Many arousal's during REM stage

Now to figure out how to deal with REM Sleep Disorder. I'll get studying and would much appreciate any insight.