Thoughts about Tongue placement

[gzimmer]

The more I think about this, the more important it seems.
Firstly, an illustration and then a couple of experiments:

Tongue.jpg (135.84 KiB) Viewed 3749 times

(1) Breathe through your mouth (mouth open, no mask) and then press your tongue to the top of your mouth.
You'll find that your breath is completely blocked.

(2) Blow your cheeks up like a glass-blower (or a didgeridoo player), then try breathing through your nose (without deflating your cheeks). Rather surprisingly perhaps, it's easy to do.

All this shows that your tongue can have three positions....

(a) Relaxed (eg normal), or
(b) pressed against the top of the mouth (eg when using a Nasal mask), or
(c) at the back of your throat (which is what causes Obstructive Apnea [for some people]).

Now for CPAP to hold your tongue forward, there must be a pressure difference between the back and the front of your tongue.
When you use a Nasal mask, you firstly press your tongue against the roof of your mouth, then the CPAP pressure hold it there.
If your mouth is open, the necessary pressure difference is established between the back and the front.

However if you hold your mouth closed (and allow the tongue to fall), then the pressure is developed against your cheeks, and your cheeks blow up like a glass blower (chipmunk cheeks). When this happens, the pressure is no longer across your tongue, which would seem to defeat (or lessen) the CPAP function.

However when you use a Full Face Mask, the CPAP pressure is applied to both the front and the rear of your tongue, and it seems that the lack of pressure differential would lesson the force which holds the tongue forward.

Where does this lead us?
Perhaps it explains why a Full Face mask requires more pressure than a nasal mask (?).


more on this anon .....Zim

[zoocrewphoto]

There are different reasons that people have apnea events. Not all are related to the tongue. I doubt mine is. I have a smaller than average airway, and it tends to close.

The cpap keeps my *airway* open. It doesn't do anything to my tongue. I can easily move my tongue around as I use my cpap. Ican cough, sneeze, etc. All it does is keep my airwayfrom collapsing.

[gzimmer]

zoocrewphoto,

Yes, good point. There are multiple causes of Obstructive Apnea.
(I've edited my post).

Although surely the use of your tongue to stop your mouth leaking (with nasal mask) would still apply?


Thanks ..... Zim

[zoocrewphoto]

zoocrewphoto,

Yes, good point. There are multiple causes of Obstructive Apnea.
(I've edited my post).

Although surely the use of your tongue to stop your mouth leaking (with nasal mask) would still apply?


Thanks ..... Zim

I do not breathe through my nose when I am in bed. I can, but I don't. I suspect it is similar to my day time breathing. I am not very active, I will breathe through my nose, but even minor activity, and i start mouth breathing. If i try to breathe through my nose while active, I have to take larger breaths through my mouth every few. It's like I don't get enough air. Anyway, when I lay down, I switch to mouth breathing. Perhaps something in that position changes.

A nyway, I am content with the way I am, so I see no reason to stress myself out trying to change. I did a couple of times, intentionally breate through my nose with my cpap mask on to see what it felt like. I hated it. I did not like the sensation at all. Back when I started cpap, I started with a full face mask, I then tried a hybrid, and I hated the nasal part of it. I tried a couple partial nights and gave up. I can use a full face mask and ignore my nose (which doesn't seem to accept any airflow unless I try on purpose). And I can use an oral only mask. I see no reason to ever try a nasal mask.

Since I sleep with my mouth open (not far, but mouth breathing full time), i have never tried to block the flow of air with my tongue.

[palerider]

The more I think about this, the more important it seems.

To YOU.

(1) Breathe through your mouth (mouth open, no mask) and then press your tongue to the top of your mouth.
You'll find that your breath is completely blocked.

Nope, can easily breathe around it.

(2) Blow your cheeks up like a glass-blower (or a didgeridoo player), then try breathing through your nose (without deflating your cheeks). Rather surprisingly perhaps, it's easy to do.

Why wouldn't it be?

All this shows that your tongue can have three positions....

(a) Relaxed (eg normal), or
(b) pressed against the top of the mouth (eg when using a Nasal mask), or
(c) at the back of your throat (which is what causes Obstructive Apnea [for some people]).

Eh, no, no it doesn't.

Now for CPAP to hold your tongue forward, there must be a pressure difference between the back and the front of your tongue.
When you use a Nasal mask, you firstly press your tongue against the roof of your mouth, then the CPAP pressure hold it there.
If your mouth is open, the necessary pressure difference is established between the back and the front.

You have some kind of unhealthy obsession with tongues...
Here, let me just lance that boil for you.
*FULL FACE MASKS STILL WORK!!!!* So does the oral only mask!!! *gasp* (I know right? shock!)

However if you hold your mouth closed (and allow the tongue to fall), then the pressure is developed against your cheeks, and your cheeks blow up like a glass blower (chipmunk cheeks). When this happens, the pressure is no longer across your tongue, which would seem to defeat (or lessen) the CPAP function.

Only it doesn't.

However when you use a Full Face Mask, the CPAP pressure is applied to both the front and the rear of your tongue, and it seems that the lack of pressure differential would lesson the force which holds the tongue forward.

Or eliminate it completely.

Where does this lead us?
Perhaps it explains why a Full Face mask requires more pressure than a nasal mask (?).

No, FFMs often require more pressure because they force the jaw backwards, thus further narrowing the airway.

more on this anon .....Zim

Please no.

[rick blaine]

Hi gzimmer,

While your diagram (chosen from which source?) and your musings (based on how many years medical experience?) are ... interesting ... your wonderings about the process may be helped by this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dhqP2c

Given the propensity to bring civil suit in some of the countries ResMed sell in, and the risk thereby if they were to put out inaccurate info, I think it's safe to surmise that said company made sure they got the best consensus of medical opinion before they put this video out.

Or to put it another way: this 'wheel' has already been invented.

[katestyles]

That video is a good one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dhqP2c

[gzimmer]

Palerider,

You have completely missed the point of my post, which is to explain the mechanism which prevents CPAP air flowing from your nose and out your mouth when the tongue is pressed to the roof of the mouth. And how CPAP pressure holds it in place.

Thank you Rick Blaine for the video, it is very good. But it does not address the point of my post (as above).

Whatever, one thing I have learnt recently is that Social Media can be a nasty place.
There is always a bully who turns an interesting discussion into a shouting match.
I won't bother you any more.

......Zim

[chunkyfrog]

Some people claim that they can train their tongue to prevent mouth breathing.
This MIGHT be true--but not for everyone.
My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

[zonker]

Some people claim that they can train their tongue to prevent mouth breathing.
This MIGHT be true--but not for everyone.
My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

i am with you. the main obstacle for me keeping my tongue to the roof of my mouth is a high arch.

so i just watch from the sidelines(usually) when these discussions take place.

[Goofproof]

Some people claim that they can train their tongue to prevent mouth breathing.
This MIGHT be true--but not for everyone.
My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

Good Fly Day? Some people can't be trained to drink from a glass, Those that can do, others not so much. The trick works for me, but it takes time and a small effort, the brain has to rewire it's self, a slow process sometimes. When you succeed, the brain learns, it has to be done when asleep. Jim

[palerider]

Palerider,

You have completely missed the point of my post, which is to explain the mechanism which prevents CPAP air flowing from your nose and out your mouth when the tongue is pressed to the roof of the mouth. And how CPAP pressure holds it in place.

Oh, I got your "point",

The issue is that your "point" is *WRONG*, which you're blissfully unaware of.

I won't bother you any more.

If by "won't bother you any more" you mean that you'll stop posting ignorance... then that would be lovely!

[palerider]

My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

catching bugs...

[chunkyfrog]

My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

catching bugs...

---part of eating.

[zonker]

My tongue needs rest, please.
It has been busy all day--talking, eating, kissing, etc.

catching bugs...

---part of eating.

so, i take it you aren't in favor of catch and release?