Ketogenic Diet (Keto) - Ineffective and Dangerous

[Grace~~~]

Do you think any foods or non-pharmaceuticals help restore / cure insulin resistance? Like grapefruit or cinnamon?

I know nothing of diabetes. I am stage IIIC CA END and had my blood tested at least twice a week for years during treatment. This included hundreds of glucose test and with the exception of one 99 the bulk from my hospital records are in the 80's with about 20% in the 70's. There was never any issue and that allowed them to give me the highest doses chemo. Hardcore chemo. several types - mostly platinum

About three weeks ago I was in the hospital through the ER with the unknown to me ER doctors. They diagnosed me with a reading of 139 and said I had diabetes and to follow up. I was in shock. I had readings every two weeks right up to two weeks before? Unfortunately, I have too many urgent issues to follow up with this possible diagnosis and with fast onset diabetes we need to rule out pancreatic cancer. My oncologists are focusing on a very bad infection that wants to be antibiotic resistant and anemia and feritin and iron saturation levels below 5

These complications, as I understand, could make the TEST for diabetes inaccurate. Initially I thought they might CAUSE diabetes but now I understand that it could just be a false reading. Also, the emergency room doctors gave me metformin and I was taking it for a few days while figuring out who to talk to about diabetes as the oncolgists or hematologists weren't interested and that's when my infection went out of control. They immediately told me to stop the metformin which I did. They said that the metformin "squeezed sugar out of cells and that sugar was feeding the bacteria strains that had combined to make this super infection". Or at least that's how I understand it?

I was told to wait on this issue, nevertheless, I got a meter and test strips and started trying to educate myself. I also have eliminated any trace of refined sugar and carbohydrate and I am eating only fish, vegetables, high fat dairy, eggs fruit (I realize fruit is sugar) and a little non-fish meat. ( to me fish IS meat). I am drinking only water with lime. I started adding in lots of in season grapefruit.

I am puzzled what the glucose meter is telling me and I am going to go to Cornell in Manhattan to talk to an endocrinologist as soon as I can resolve these more urgent issues. I wake up, after 12-14 hours of no food with HIGH readings! usually around 120 though as high as 135 . As soon as I eat anything they drop back to around 85-90 and stay there right up to when I test at night before bed and then overnight while I'm sleeping the go up?

A friend actually asked if it could be due to cpap! LOL SInce that's the only "weird" thing I do while sleeping?

I just got results from last weeks biopsy which were THANK GOD negative and when it is safe to biopsy pancreas with this infection I will rule this out.

I went to an online diabetes site that was like this site but there was nothing there that sounded like my case.

I have no love affair with food and I am a healthy eater. I was vegetarian for a decade of my life and hardcore vegan for two years but I have been eating meat for the last 5 on doctors orders due to the anemia, low iron (I get infusions) and just healing from surgeries.

I'm thinking of getting a continuous glucose monitoring device so I can tell whats really happening all day. I know I need the advice of top doctors but any ideas that could help fill in the blanks from this group of people whom I respect would be great.

...a month ago I had ZERO idea what insulin did or really even what my pancreas did? Shameful. I know.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

~~~grace

[igotsuckeredtoo]

Hmmm.
I was "diagnosed" with type two after having been on high dose of niacin for over a year. The glucose tolerance test was right at 200 the tipping point for a diag. They put me on metformin to add to the masses of crap they already had me taking. My eyes started getting blurry I started having what I now realize is shooting pains from too much sugar on the blood. I never had any of these problems before all these meds and BS they had been doing to me for a few years.
Eventually for a lot of reasons I won't go into I stopped taking the meds, at one point they had me taking 29 pills a day!. Mainly I was on the border and not over and apparently high doses of Niacin causes increase in blood sugars and the doctors never checked my diary book of the glucose readings when I brought it in. 120 is normal i memory serves. Anything below 150 is normal afaik. But the rules may have changed I was using a Bayer monitor to check glucose.
For the last few years, I drink a lot of unsweetened Cranberry juice. I haven't in a while but if I start getting those shooting pains or my body starts acting like it has too much sugar I get up and move around, flex the muscles that had the pain and otherwise do things to burn off the excess sugar ion my blood. Never had these problems before they "diagnosed" me with type 2 and began treating me.

I guess all I really have to say is that 120 is a normal range number, mine were always 129 or less. I was only testing in the morning and I tried a few during teh day but it was never outside the range described as normal even after I stopped taking all those meds. try this https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20373635
I hope it helps relieve your stress.

[Grace~~~]

Thanks for the input, igotsuckeredtoo.

I just bought some organic unsweetened cranberry last night and I'm adding that to the routine. So your tip was perfect timing.

I'm hesitant to talk about this too as I am really very private but I have been on a razors edge fighting for my life and feel I am slipping toward the wrong side so being "uncomfortable about oversharing" is becoming less important.

Also, my *details* are graphic and gory.

I know if I could get more physical activity it would be better but I'm in kinda rough shape with this anemia.

I taught aerobics in the late 80's and 90's and I was very physical and blessed with a body that put on muscle very easily. I was always an avid water sports girl and could easily ride my bike for eight hours straight as an the epitome of a "great day". It sounds insane to say, but I was at the peak of health when they found this cancer. I wonder if that is working against me now that I am not able to be physical. It freaks me out to feel my body and I can't even flex and make my butt rock hard now. I really only noticed that I could no longer do this within the last few weeks. I haven't really put on fat but I am definitely losing muscle. Which feels just as bad.

I'm thinking that since my body was accustomed to burning so much energy that this aspect is working against me now? That maybe it could be a contributing factor?

I am ashamed to say that even just going out to the grocery store I am liable to black out or fall down. No way could I ride a real bike and I even managed to fall off a stationary bike when I blacked out.

It's all a nightmare that I wake up every morning and forget what has happened and who I am now and have to deal with the truth over and over every morning that this is all real before I can get out of bed.

This new "diabetes" twist is really throwing me. It's strange the shame and guilt I feel about not being in perfect health. There was something in this thread that struck that nerve in me. Probably JNK's words. They triggered a sense of shame and the feeling that I wouldn't want anyone to know about this diabetes. I didn't tell anyone about the cancer for as long as i could hide it - nearly a year. Admitting it and writing it is almost like owning it. This internet anonymity is a little therapeutic. Though really at the moment I am NOT OWNING IT. I am trying to find out why and how to make it not true.

I hope God is using this all to purify my soul. Sometimes I think this is all about humility.

...but sometimes you get just the right kernel of truth that helps you solve big problems ... so I need to at least try when a subject like this keto and insulin appears in my sphere. Ya know?

Thanks again. Happy Thanksgiving.
~~~grace

[igotsuckeredtoo]

I get it I am private too. But necessity....

I got really fat after moving where I am now 16 years ago 3 short years before that I did the Death Ride and I weighed 152. A few months later I was injured and my medical care has been destroying my health ever since. There is a lot of feelings and concerns around this that well rounded adults shouldn't worry about but we do.
You may notice a desire for more salt after drinking the cranberry. Its high in potassium. I think that craving has something to do with the cellular sodium/potassium pump but I drink 24+ oz a day.

[Arlene1963]

Grace, even though I have never met you and only know you from your incredibly unique and wonderful posts here, I'm rooting for you.

Hope this offends no-one, and Pugsy please feel free to remove this capitalized word , but SHIT, I am so sorry to read of these recent set backs in your health.

Was your glucose test in the ER a random glucose test or fasting glucose test? That number isn't particularly high for a random test. Especially in the context of a severe infection. (Edit to add: I just reread your post and see that you were admitted through ER into hospital so likely your glucose was monitored over several days)

How long after meals are you testing and how often?

Your fasting glucose is a little on the high side, but considering the infection, I wonder the significance?

I personally wouldn't be too keen on any fruit juice, unsweetened or not, simply because it is almost pure sugar.

[Janknitz]

Grace, Infection and inflammation will raise your glucose levels very high. When the infection is under control, you should see those levels come back down. Keeping your diet very low sugar is helpful, sugar fans inflammation, and feeds cancer cells. Your metabolism is under siege from all the various treatments you are receiving, so there's a lot going on there. Sounds like you are doing the best you can. So thankful that it's not pancreatic mets!

Metformin does not "squeeze" glucose out of cells--it does the opposite. It sensitizes your cells to insulin, so that they can absorb more glucose into the cells--out of the bloodstream. Metformin makes insulin more efficient, so your body has to secrete less. But if the underlying problem causing your blood sugars to soar is the infection and inflammation, Metformin isn't likely to help, especially in the short term because it takes a while to be effective.

Diabetics often have higher blood sugars in the morning and the blood sugar goes down after they eat. You may have experienced what is known as "dawn phenomenon"--in the morning between 3 and 8 a.m. your body releases some blood glucose to wake you up and get you going (non-diabetics have this, too). If there's not enough insulin to deal with it (or if your cells are insulin resistant and don't respond to the insulin you secrete) your blood sugar rises. Once you eat, more insulin is released and can bring your blood glucose levels down.

I hope that you get back on an even keel and feel better soon.

[SewTired]

One of the points that was made "but the underlying glucose resistance may still be present" is true. They found the same thing to happen with cats. Even cats fed raw food diet develop diabetes in the absence of carbs. They confirmed this when these cats (those who developed diabetes) developed chronic kidney failure and were switched to low protein, higher carb food to reduce strain on kidneys.

Jan has excellent control, but when she increases her carb level, the glucose resistance is likely still there. Just so long as you realize that, it's a non-problem. Now, why would she increase her carb level? That may happen if she develops certain illnesses where meat protein is replaced with other protein (either plant or grain). If she does not and maintains her current status quo, non-problem.

My endo is fine with a keto program, but told me what my limit of protein was. So long as I don't go over, he's not worried about it. He has had some patients who have had success with it.

Understand this is not a problem of “glucose resistance”. The issue is hyperINSULEMIA and INSULIN resistance. A very important distinction. Insulin is the hormone which (among other things) causes cells of the body to store energy in the form of fat.

I’m not sure what cat study you are referring to, but cat metabolism is not the same as human metabolism (neither is mouse metabolism) so I’m not sure what conclusions could be drawn. And I’m curious about that conclusion. Cats are obligate carnivores so I’m not sure what the sources of carbohydrates would be in their natural, wild diet. Do lions and tigers need their whole wheat bread to prevent diabetes???

Apparently there are some mosquitos that carry a bacteria or virus that can cause a severe allergy to meat. But barring that I cannot imagine any illness or condition that would require one to get protein only from non-animal sources. And your endo is again lumping keto with high protein diets. Generally keto is moderate protein. (Some people do otherwise, but high protein isn’t the usual form of keto).

It’s very true that people with insulin resistance aren’t “cured” by a ketogenic diet and the same problems will recur when carbohydrates are increased. But the condition is controlled and the damage carbohydrates cause can be reversed on keto or low carb.

Ultimately insulin resistance is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance. So clearly it makes no more sense for someone who is carbohydrate intolerant to eat a lot of carbohydrates than it does for someone with a food allergy to eat the food they are allergic to. Avoidance doesn’t “cure” the allergy, but certainly improves the quality of life. There’s not much logic in continuing to eat the so-called Standard American Diet and getting sicker and fatter simply because the keto diet may not “cure” insulin resistance.

Jan, sorry about the long delay in response. I had an injury on Halloween and still have great difficulty accessing computer on different floor.

First, you are absolutely correct. I meant to say 'insulin resistance' not glucose resistance. Thanks for the correction.

Second, you may not have been aware that domestic cats have been used to study diabetes for over 60 years for both Type 1 and Type 2. The study I refer to is not yet published - my cousin's cats are involved in the study. The point of the study is that they still develop diabetes despite a lack of carbohydrates in their diets and at roughly the same rate as cats who receive commercial pet food (high carb). Previously, commercial pet foods were solely to blame for cats developing diabetes and that assumption is now proved to be false. And yes, overweight cats are more likely to develop diabetes at a younger age, but cats who have never been overweight can also develop it (just like people). Lions and tigers are not part of these studies, so irrelevant.

My endo wasn't lumping anything. We had been discussing both keto and high fat low carb diets. He merely expressed concern over too much protein.

Your experience is not the same as mine. My late brother was medically unable consume meat/fish for the last 5 years of his life. When you are a caregiver, you end up meeting lots of people in similar circumstances. However, I also found out that many elderly cannot digest meat/fish either. It makes them ill, so they won't eat it (I had a similar problem for several months after my cancer surgery). As a result, they get inadequate protein. My Mom is 84 and this problem started in the last year. She is now pre-diabetic as a result. So, it's not a rare problem, just not one you have come in contact with on a regular basis.

One of the good things is that keto almost always IMPROVES insulin resistance, even if it doesn't eliminate it. That's a big reason for anybody to try it.

This isn't intended as a treatise. Lots more about this, but don't want to bore anybody.

[Janknitz]

One of the good things is that keto almost always IMPROVES insulin resistance, even if it doesn't eliminate it. That's a big reason for anybody to try it.

Absolutely we agree on this, but I still want to state my observations on what you've said.

Second, you may not have been aware that domestic cats have been used to study diabetes for over 60 years for both Type 1 and Type 2. The study I refer to is not yet published - my cousin's cats are involved in the study. The point of the study is that they still develop diabetes despite a lack of carbohydrates in their diets and at roughly the same rate as cats who receive commercial pet food (high carb). Previously, commercial pet foods were solely to blame for cats developing diabetes and that assumption is now proved to be false. And yes, overweight cats are more likely to develop diabetes at a younger age, but cats who have never been overweight can also develop it (just like people). Lions and tigers are not part of these studies, so irrelevant.

Lots of animal AND human models have been studied for diabetes. An unpublished study third hand is not authority, and from what I can see from what you've reported is that if the study stands for anything, it stands for the fact that carbohydrates may not cause diabetes in CATS. How much you can extrapolate that to humans remains to be seen, and there's no way to look at the quality of the study until it's peer-reviewed and published. It certainly does not seem to stand for arguing that we need carbohydrates in our diet to prevent diabetes.

Note that if someone talks about low carb or keto, they are NOT advocating for NO carbs. That's almost impossible and certainly unnecessary. Even a raw egg has a gram of carbs. But both ways of eating significantly restrict carbs, and carbs you do eat ideally should be incidental to the vegetables and proteins you eat. A key premise of both is to avoid excess carbs.

Does excess carbohydrate ingestion cause diabetes? I don't think that question is answered yet. Type I is an autoimmune disease. What exactly triggers those with the genetic predisposition is unknown, though I've read many theories.

As for Type II, it's not easy to sort out. The current speculation is that overconsumption of carbs leads to overproduction of insulin which may lead the cells to become insulin resistant. I think eventually they are going to see that certain genetic populations already normally have either hyperinsulemia or insulin resistance (they are not sure which comes first) and when you load on the carbs (especially acellular carbs) it creates a metabolic maelstrom that leads to diabetes. We see this in populations that eat their traditional diet until they migrate to westernized countries (or are similarly taken over by westernized populations)--they go from healthy with virtually no diabetes and heart disease to extremely sick with both in less than one generation.

Whether carbohydrates cause diabetes isn't really the question, it's what carbohydrates do to someone with the metabolic pre-disposition to develop diabetes in the first place. Overloading such people with carbohydrates makes no sense whatsoever. Look up the work of Dr. Joseph Kraft. He was a doctor in private practice who had every one of his patients undergo a 5 hour glucose tolerance test with Insulin levels measured-over 14,000 subjects in the course of his career. He identified 75% of his patient population of having issues with insulin metabolism. Those with high insulin levels without frank diabetes under standard diagnostic criteria he labeled as "diabetes in situ" indicated by hyperinsulemia. http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2015/ ... f-diabetes.

It's likely that diabetes as it's commonly diagnosed today has more than just one cause, but there's no question that overconsumption of carbohydrates doesn't do any good for what may be as much as 75% of our population who have a metabolic disadvantage handling excess carbohydrates.

As for people who cannot digest meat, I think there's a long and very complicated reason for that, and diabetes and pre-diabetic conditions play a significant role. I don't want to write a book here, so I'm going to refer you to a very good book on the subject that ties it all up together very well: Why Stomach Acid is Good for You, by Jonathan V. Wright, M.D. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AE1M1R0/re ... TF8&btkr=1 When people don't eat meat, dairy, fish, or eggs, they are left to eat carbohydrate-based foods to try to get adequate protein. It's vitally important to ask WHY they can't digest animal proteins--what is the cause of low stomach acid, poor digestive motility, gut dysbiosis, and lack of digestive enzymes? Reading this book will show you why more carbohydrates is a very poor idea--diabetes/pre-diabetes is a primary causal factor. Eating more carbohydrates may only make the conditions underlying the difficulty digesting meat worse. This would be a very important book for your mom, I hope you can find a way to help her.

[Sticky Fingers]

Here are four foods that get a bad rap:

1 - Potatoes: Potatoes according to study that researched satiety, showed potatoes to be the most filling foods given it’s calories. Potatoes are also loaded with valuable nutrients. I recommend switching between both sweet potatoes and white ones as they each contain nutrients the other one lack.

2 - Whole grain bread: Unless you have celiac disease (1 in 141 people), then believe it or not, bread is one of the most beneficial foods to include. Wheat and whole grain breads have consistently shown in research to be very beneficial for health. When it comes to weight loss, there’s even a study showing including bread in your diet allows you to substantially stick to your diet longer instead of giving up.

3 - Fruit: Many people think high sugar fruits make you fat, but sugar doesn’t make you fat. Eating excessive calories make you fat whether they come from sugar, protein, or fat. But fruits are one of the best carbohydrates you can eat. They are loaded with polyphenols which help with mood, energy, health, and disease prevention.

4 - Dairy and eggs: Same with these. Dairy and eggs have only been shown to be beneficial in credible research. If you’re lactose intolerant, that’s a different story, but including them is a great idea. Just be sure to eat in amounts that support your weight gain or weight loss goals.

Note: If you are diabetic, this may not apply.

[Janknitz]

Here are four foods that get a bad rap:

1 - Potatoes: Potatoes according to study that researched satiety, showed potatoes to be the most filling foods given it’s calories. Potatoes are also loaded with valuable nutrients. I recommend switching between both sweet potatoes and white ones as they each contain nutrients the other one lack.

2 - Whole grain bread: Unless you have celiac disease (1 in 141 people), then believe it or not, bread is one of the most beneficial foods to include. Wheat and whole grain breads have consistently shown in research to be very beneficial for health. When it comes to weight loss, there’s even a study showing including bread in your diet allows you to substantially stick to your diet longer instead of giving up.

3 - Fruit: Many people think high sugar fruits make you fat, but sugar doesn’t make you fat. Eating excessive calories make you fat whether they come from sugar, protein, or fat. But fruits are one of the best carbohydrates you can eat. They are loaded with polyphenols which help with mood, energy, health, and disease prevention.

4 - Dairy and eggs: Same with these. Dairy and eggs have only been shown to be beneficial in credible research. If you’re lactose intolerant, that’s a different story, but including them is a great idea. Just be sure to eat in amounts that support your weight gain or weight loss goals.

Note: If you are diabetic, this may not apply.

What magazine or website did you take that great wisdom from? Bet it was full of ads for statins, diabetes medications, and walk-in tubs.

[chunkyfrog]

In truth, usually, the only really "bad" food is "too much" for your situation.
For a diabetic, carbs must be balanced with insulin and/or activity.
We also should not ignore the fact that the fat we eat can be turned into sugar,
but it takes a while. The body is very clever--even when it works against our best design.

[Grace~~~]

Since this thread is back on the top again let me say THANK YOU to Arlene for her kind words.

I wish I could formulate an intelligent question about the dawn phenomena for jankowitz but my anemia and possible diabetes are on the back burner while I am in a horrible triage. My first visit with a "visiting nurse" just ended 30 minutes ago and I am in a "effed state of denial" over what just happened. Seriously.

I feel like crying and laughing and am wondering about assisted suicide. But I'm sure I'll get a grip and can worry about glucose again soon. Don't take that too seriously. I'm not a quitter ... and I think suffering will purify my soul so my soul can't afford the luxury of assisted suicide.

It's just all one long bad trip.

F@<K

[Janknitz]

Grace, I'm confused, what happened???

[Grace~~~]

Hi Janknitz ~~~

Oh just more terrible repercussions from chemo and radiation. Nothing cPap or Keto related.
I'm just in a kinda manic shock right now. Doing the kind of posting one should regret. Now is when the internet should go out ... but nooooooo ~~~~

As for the keto/ diet topic of this thread (kinda) ...

It may be a while before I see an endocrinologist. I am still self testing and getting that same result of high morning readings of around 120-130 and then I am staying under 90 the rest of the day.

I tried to read up on dawn phenomena. Should I eat something before bed? And what? Or what should I eat first thing in the morning? I've been having a poached egg on spinach or asparagus? These are things I would ask an endocrinologist or any doctor if any of them cared about my new fast onset glucose issue. Right now the most serious thing is an infection that no antibiotic is getting under control and some new "bodily failures". They've been pulling organs and pieces out of me like a jenga game.

I don't know enough to say that I am on a KETO diet. I have not eaten anything at all processed. Vegetable based. Meat as a seasoning. Eggs and Dairy.

I wanted to find a sweetener because I really was missing coffee which I like with a little cream and sugar. I tried Stevia a few weeks ago and I had a really weird reaction. I turned red and felt like I was choking. It scared me. I took benedryl and the episode passed but now I am afraid to try again?

I'm not sure how to test for an allergic reaction safely? It would be nice to have some kind of sweetener option for rare instances and for coffee. Though I suppose I can live without it.

I've been thinking of going to Hippocrates in South Florida to do their wheatgrass program. All wheatgrass, all day, including wheatgrass enemas ... and possible wheatgrass baths? LOL ... but my oncologist said he would abandon me if I did.

I'd like to have some exact diet to follow which is why I like when it's discussed here. Something I could focus on and feel like I am doing everything right. When I read here on cpaptalk threads about diets it's very clear to me all that I do not know.

[Janknitz]

In truth, usually, the only really "bad" food is "too much" for your situation.
For a diabetic, carbs must be balanced with insulin and/or activity.
We also should not ignore the fact that the fat we eat can be turned into sugar,
but it takes a while. The body is very clever--even when it works against our best design.

Chunky,

There are long distance RUNNERS with Type II diabetes. How much more activity do they have to do to "balance" insulin??? Have you ever heard of Professor Tim Noakes? He is a doctor in South Africa and a long distance runner. He wrote a book about running called "The Lore of Running". In that book he recommended "carbing up" before long runs. When he developed diabetes, he couldn't understand why because he was so active. He started researching and realized how bad his nutritional advice was. There is a famous video of him saying ""If you've got Lore of Running, tear out the section on nutrition" because he no longer believed this information was correct--the video shows him tearing out those pages in his book. He learned the hard way--personally, that exercise will not cure a bad diet, and carbohydrates are not a good diet for anyone with a pre-disposition to diabetes (it ran in his family).

Taking insulin to "balance" the hyperinsulemia and insulin resistance of Type II just so you can eat more carbs makes no sense. The more insulin you shoot up with, the worse the diabetic complications become. Some Type II's absolutely need insulin when they've burned out their beta cells completely, but that's avoidable if you stop carbing up early enough. Type I's must take insulin or they will die, but the more insulin they take, the more insulin resistant they become. Restricting carbohydrates (see The Diabetes Solution by Richard K. Bernstein, M.D.) will reduce the amount of exogenous insulin needed by Type I's.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information that "the fat we eat can be turned to sugar". Not very well at all--the glycemic impact is virtually nil. OTOH, Sugar is easily turned into fat stored in the cells.