New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Pugsy
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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:56 pm

palerider wrote:interesting, every other pic I've seen, and raw data I've examined, the probes are 1.5cm, like in this image from Pugsy
That's an old APAP report.
Maybe it's different on the BiPaps...I will go dig through some old Bipap Auto reports and see what they showed.

Edit: well crap...I can't find the old reports except in Encore where I can't see the scale good enough.
I think I did some house cleaning in Sleepyhead along with removing the older versions...
The pressure probes do seem to vary...even when not in conjunction with an obvious pressure increase...some taller than others but I can't see the scale well enough to see just what the tallest spike is.
I thought I read somewhere the mention of 1.5 but I forget where and to what machine it was referring to...assuming I didn't dream it.

Maybe I will fire up the old 760 and give her a run so I can put the data in Sleepyhead....I don't have it on the SD card...used that card for something else.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by palerider » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:37 pm

Pugsy wrote:
palerider wrote:interesting, every other pic I've seen, and raw data I've examined, the probes are 1.5cm, like in this image from Pugsy
That's an old APAP report.
Maybe it's different on the BiPaps...I will go dig through some old Bipap Auto reports and see what they showed.
that's a possibility.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by robysue » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:00 pm

Well regardless of whether the pressure probes from the Search algorithm are 1.5 or 2 cm probes on the PR DreamStation AutoCPAP, the fact is that pressure glitch in SleepyMcgee's data is way too small for a pressure probe.

For what it's worth, on my PR bipaps, the pressure probes are definitely 2cm. From my old PR S1 BiPAP Auto:

Image

And here's data from the new DreamStation AutoBiPAP:
Image

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:18 pm

Maybe it is different on the BiPaps...to be honest I never even gave them a second look. I don't dwell on stuff I have zero control over and I was never bothered by pressures...the probes or the real deal going a lot higher so there was no real need for me to do much thinking about them.
Maybe it's an "up to" thing and maybe mine only went "up to 1.5" because the machine didn't want to probe higher.
I did notice some that were definitely less than 1.0 though..still pointy so not cut off.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by robysue » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:37 pm

Pugsy wrote:Maybe it is different on the BiPaps...to be honest I never even gave them a second look. I don't dwell on stuff I have zero control over and I was never bothered by pressures...the probes or the real deal going a lot higher so there was no real need for me to do much thinking about them.
I just thought that all the PR machines tried 2cm pressure probes automatically.

I suppose I could rig up an experiment with hubby's PR System One AutoCPAP. He's using it with in APAP mode with min pressure=max pressure = 7 because it works for him. Maybe I could open it up to 7-9 for a night or two.
Maybe it's an "up to" thing and maybe mine only went "up to 1.5" because the machine didn't want to probe higher.
I did notice some that were definitely less than 1.0 though..still pointy so not cut off.
I have noticed that in my own data that IF the machine finds something, it doesn't always increase the pressure by 2cm even if the probe went that far. Moreover if you look at the very last pressure probe on my DreamStation data, the machine DID find a reason to increase the pressure during the pressure probe: The probe when up 1.5cm, but the pressure was increased only 1cm. That fits with the written stuff we've seen about the PR search algorithm: If it finds an improvement, it keeps going for 0.5cm beyond the last "improvement" is seen and then backs off to the pressure where the last improvement was seen. But on my machine it does do a full 2cm increase looking for improvement before it gives up when no improvement is found.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:56 pm

robysue wrote:Maybe I could open it up to 7-9 for a night or two.
I like the sound of that better than me digging out the 760...since that would involve setting everything up and dismantling the S9. Too much work for this old lady tonight.
His is already set up.

Doesn't really matter..it's obvious yours does do the 2 cm spikes and I don't have an apap now to test...no wait...I might have one...long story...just thought of it...Let me go check. I test drove an apap for one night not long ago...I don't know if I put it in my normal SH user profile or not.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:05 pm

One recent night last month with a PR S1 560.
Looks like 1.5 is the most probe I got.
I think you can see the first REM cycle pretty clearly...I always called it my witching hour...first REM was almost always where I saw the highest pressures.

Image

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by SleepyMcgee » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:31 am

Ok so here is last nights...Very low AHI. Fell asleep at 11:40 and woke up at 5:22 (well, actually 4:22 but with the time change it was 5:22). Then I nodded off for another hour or so.

I feel pretty much the same as the last week. No material difference. Again, felt like I slept like a log but here I am...Interesting it shows pressure pulses but I dont see the actual increase in pressure. With such low AHI's at this pressure (10) I'm hesitant to move it back down. Are you guys saying increase the upper a bit to allow for pressure pulses?
Thanks!

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by robysue » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:06 am

SleepyMcgee wrote:Ok so here is last nights...Very low AHI. Fell asleep at 11:40 and woke up at 5:22 (well, actually 4:22 but with the time change it was 5:22). Then I nodded off for another hour or so.
Could you show us the flow rate graph instead of the Time at Pressure graph?
I feel pretty much the same as the last week. No material difference. Again, felt like I slept like a log but here I am...Interesting it shows pressure pulses but I dont see the actual increase in pressure. With such low AHI's at this pressure (10) I'm hesitant to move it back down. Are you guys saying increase the upper a bit to allow for pressure pulses?
To figure out what those two little pressure blips are, could you zoom in on them AND include the Flow rate data?

They're only 0.5cm high, so it seems unlikely that they're part of the PR Search algorithm. Both of them follow a Flow Limitation flag in the Events table, and that's why it's worth zooming in on the Flow Rate data right before and right after the pressure blip.

My only guess is that the machine thought about increasing the pressure in response to the FL, but somehow the shape of the inhalations in the Flow Rate curve got worse and so the machine backed off on the pressure increase. But that's just a guess on my part. It will be interesting to see how PaleRider interprets this.

As to whether to increase the pressure or not: I'm cautious about increasing pressure. With that understanding, I would say that there in evidence that increasing your pressure settings would do diddly squat: Even if we count FL, RERAs VS, and VS2 flags as events, there no CLUSTERING of events, so objectively there's no evidence that more pressure is needed. Indeed, there are not that many events scored in the first place: There is a total of 2 Hs and 1CA in the official AHI, and if we add up the FL, RERAs, VS and VS2 flags, we get a total of 5 more "events" that are not part of the AHI. So the machine scored a grand total of 7 events of all types for the whole night. In other words, if we add everything together to create an extreme version of an RDI, we'd have an RDI of 1.44 and that's "double counting" the snores since I added both the VS and VS2 snores together as well as counting the FLI, which is not calculated in a PSG.

My guess is that if you just increase the max pressure, nothing is likely to change: Your machine is still likely to stay right at the min pressure for almost the whole night.

And if you increase the min pressure? The machine is just going to stay at the new min pressure all night, and you're not likely to see any reduction in the number of your events.

So why bother with a pressure increase? I think you'd be better off leaving the settings where they are right now and give your body and mind a chance to adjust to these settings. Reevaluate the data and how you are feeling in a week or two.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:41 am

More pressure doesn't always change anything. I don't remember if I already told you my story with my "more pressure" experiments so my apologies if I am repeating myself here.

When I was using APAP it was fairly easy to come up with a minimum and maximum that got the job done...at least on paper. I think that is where you are at right now. On paper you look good...you just aren't feeling the good numbers like you expected to or want to.
So after I got to this point I decided to see if increasing the minimum pressure beyond where it was maybe "technically needed at least on paper". So I did a planed experiment to see what increasing the minimum might or might not accomplish. My technically, on paper at least, minimum was 10 cm and I had to leave the max wide open for my sometimes REM pressure needs.

My plan was 0.5 cm increases and stay at each increase for a week. I worked my way up to 13 minimum....never saw much change in AHI and never saw any real difference in how I slept or felt. I abandoned the experiment after I spent a week at 13. Nothing changed....more pressure didn't do anything that I could tell...good or bad.

I have really, really good "numbers" in terms of AHI...but I don't always feel those good numbers and it's been extremely rare that I have woke up feeling like I am Superwoman. Most of the time I just wake up feeling "okay"..not particularly bad but not rearing to go run a marathon by any means. Now if I don't use my cpap for some reason...I get a rude awakening as to exactly how bad I could feel.
I have noticed that how "okay" I feel directly correlates to both the number of hours of sleep I get and the quality of those hours. If I get less than 7 hours...my butt is pretty well dragging no matter how good the sleep quality is and if I get 8 or 9 hours of highly fragmented sleep my butt still drags.
My short hours or fragmented sleep isn't related to sleep apnea...my "numbers" are always good. There's just other stuff that sneaks in to mess with either the number of hours I sleep or the sleep quality itself or often both.

I think I understand where you are at and you are so wanting to figure out some little tweak in your settings to guarantee that you have more of those really good nights/days and less of the "bleh" days/nights.
I don't want to rain on your parade but what you are wanting might not be attainable if your poor sleep quality isn't related directly to sleep apnea...doesn't hurt to try though in case you get lucky.
Maybe you just need to "give it time" and there is a LOT of truth to that statement.

Sometimes the answers to our questions can't be found by putting the data we have available under the microscope no matter how much we search. Doesn't mean we should necessarily stop searching but we have to accept the reality that the answer may not be there.

And with that little speech I will step back and let you and RobySue get to work...she's a lot better with addressing poor sleep quality than I am.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by SleepyMcgee » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:58 am

Pugsy wrote:More pressure doesn't always change anything. I don't remember if I already told you my story with my "more pressure" experiments so my apologies if I am repeating myself here.

When I was using APAP it was fairly easy to come up with a minimum and maximum that got the job done...at least on paper. I think that is where you are at right now. On paper you look good...you just aren't feeling the good numbers like you expected to or want to.
So after I got to this point I decided to see if increasing the minimum pressure beyond where it was maybe "technically needed at least on paper". So I did a planed experiment to see what increasing the minimum might or might not accomplish. My technically, on paper at least, minimum was 10 cm and I had to leave the max wide open for my sometimes REM pressure needs.

My plan was 0.5 cm increases and stay at each increase for a week. I worked my way up to 13 minimum....never saw much change in AHI and never saw any real difference in how I slept or felt. I abandoned the experiment after I spent a week at 13. Nothing changed....more pressure didn't do anything that I could tell...good or bad.

I have really, really good "numbers" in terms of AHI...but I don't always feel those good numbers and it's been extremely rare that I have woke up feeling like I am Superwoman. Most of the time I just wake up feeling "okay"..not particularly bad but not rearing to go run a marathon by any means. Now if I don't use my cpap for some reason...I get a rude awakening as to exactly how bad I could feel.
I have noticed that how "okay" I feel directly correlates to both the number of hours of sleep I get and the quality of those hours. If I get less than 7 hours...my butt is pretty well dragging no matter how good the sleep quality is and if I get 8 or 9 hours of highly fragmented sleep my butt still drags.
My short hours or fragmented sleep isn't related to sleep apnea...my "numbers" are always good. There's just other stuff that sneaks in to mess with either the number of hours I sleep or the sleep quality itself or often both.

I think I understand where you are at and you are so wanting to figure out some little tweak in your settings to guarantee that you have more of those really good nights/days and less of the "bleh" days/nights.
I don't want to rain on your parade but what you are wanting might not be attainable if your poor sleep quality isn't related directly to sleep apnea...doesn't hurt to try though in case you get lucky.
Maybe you just need to "give it time" and there is a LOT of truth to that statement.

Sometimes the answers to our questions can't be found by putting the data we have available under the microscope no matter how much we search. Doesn't mean we should necessarily stop searching but we have to accept the reality that the answer may not be there.

And with that little speech I will step back and let you and RobySue get to work...she's a lot better with addressing poor sleep quality than I am.
Oh I know and I get all that. Just wanting to maximize my machines effectiveness. Once I get the sleep study done hopefully they'll find something else. So crazy to sleep like a log, have low AHI and wake up foggy and fatigued.


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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by Pugsy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:18 am

I suspect that while you think you might be sleeping like a log...maybe you aren't. Now why? That's the million dollar question. Been there, done that and have the T shirt to prove it and it took me literally years to get it sorted out and lots of detective work and trial and error experiments...some with cpap settings and machines and some with stuff unrelated to sleep apnea. It's still not perfect but it's hugely better than it was pre cpap.

Heck...maybe you would do better with the ResMed algorithm. Wouldn't be impossible but that's a pricey experiment. Hence my recommendation a while back that if you decide to get a spare machine...consider a ResMed.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by SleepyMcgee » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:55 pm

Get this. Drove down to NYC for the night with my wife. Had a nice dinner, had a bunch of drinks, saw a concert, went to bed after midnight. (Still woke briefly at 3:30-4am) Up at 7am.

Feel like a rock star today. AHI of 2.

This is the craziest thing.

Traveling tomorrow and dreading the thought of waking up like a zombie!


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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by robysue » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:06 pm

SleepyMcgee wrote:Get this. Drove down to NYC for the night with my wife. Had a nice dinner, had a bunch of drinks, saw a concert, went to bed after midnight. (Still woke briefly at 3:30-4am) Up at 7am.

Feel like a rock star today. AHI of 2.

This is the craziest thing.
There's more to feeling good than a super low AHI.

My guess is that you went to bed and were nice and relaxed and not focused on either the OSA or the CPAP. And maybe good and tired. So you actually were able to get a genuinely good night's sleep. And the fact that you were sleeping better and deeper is probably why the AHI is a bit higher than you've been seeing while not feeling particularly good.

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Re: New user, need sleepyhead help....PLEASE!!!

Post by SleepyMcgee » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:35 pm

robysue wrote:
SleepyMcgee wrote:Get this. Drove down to NYC for the night with my wife. Had a nice dinner, had a bunch of drinks, saw a concert, went to bed after midnight. (Still woke briefly at 3:30-4am) Up at 7am.

Feel like a rock star today. AHI of 2.

This is the craziest thing.
There's more to feeling good than a super low AHI.

My guess is that you went to bed and were nice and relaxed and not focused on either the OSA or the CPAP. And maybe good and tired. So you actually were able to get a genuinely good night's sleep. And the fact that you were sleeping better and deeper is probably why the AHI is a bit higher than you've been seeing while not feeling particularly good.
Who knows. I never obsess over waking up or even the machine. I actually kinda like the feel and sound of my cpap. Oh well!


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