OT: Time out and/or Duke it out thread

[Pugsy]

My thoughts for how I would want to word things is for me...not necessarily for someone else.
I don't want to come off like I am dictating what you all say. That is the last thing I want to do.
Feel free to mirror what I might say...feel free to come up with your own...whatever seems to fit the situation where you can plop yourself down in the middle of a cat fight and not cause more fighting or get scratched yourself.

I fully expect to have to do a bit of tailoring depending on who the participants are and their overall personalities.
I want to word it so that I have the least chance of adding fuel to the flame.
Now maybe the way I might word something doesn't end up sounding nearly as good is it does in my head. It often does...just ask my husband.

So I am not going to try to dictate how you might respond or even when you might respond.
I would hope that you wouldn't respond just because you see 1 or 2 little snide remarks...sometimes little spats die out quickly and we all know we are going to have them. I think most of you know what I mean when I talk about the thread has gone to hell in a hand basket.
Save the "time out" or "go duke it out somewhere else" for the times when it is desperately needed.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't use the suggestion of the Time out Thread as another bullying tactic the first couple of times you see a thread going a bit sideways...save it for when it went past sideways and is off the tracks.
Be very careful how you word the suggestion if you feel it is warranted. You are trying to discipline behavior that is rather 2 yr old ish... It ain't gonna be pretty no matter what you do.

Pugsy if you're trying to not sound judgemental, consider a thread not called a time out thread? [WHITE SMILING FACE]️

I struggled long and hard with what to call this thread ...Time out or duke it out thread. It was the best I could come up with....remember I never said I was good at composition. I actually didn't really care for it all that much but couldn't come up with anything any better.

This is all a work in progress and it's going to need work and need polishing...we've never done anything like this before as a group. We had Dori who no one wanted to challenge when she said "time out guys and gals". Did I say how much I miss her?
Maybe if we simply adopt her approach...short, sweet, to the point and all parties know what is meant. I don't think the parties are oblivious to what they are doing...they already know it just like we do.
I honestly don't know yet how the best way to approach a cat fight in progress is.
I do know that I don't want to be using it as a substitute for "you are an asshole/jerk/bully/whatever".

We are all adults here despite sometimes not acting like one. I would like to think that we have some common sense and common courtesy even when dealing with obvious ugliness. It's really, really a very fine tightrope we are trying to walk here.
You guys and gals are going to have to do some hard thinking too...decide if you really want to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem and how to avoid being part of the problem is far from easy.

Since Dori is so well thought of...maybe I might try "I think Dori might suggest you all take your discussion/fight/whatever you want to call it elsewhere..like the time out/duke it out thread or make your own OT thread for your discussion or whatever you want to suggest".
I am open for ideas...I hate composition and no matter what we come up with (and you all are free to come up with your own) it's gonna take some heat. I have no illusions about that little fact. It's gonna piss somebody off and there's the ever present risk of throwing gasoline on the fire. We have to be prepared to say our little peace please thing and then drop it. It's gonna be hard...there's gonna be times where it doesn't work. Hell, I don't know if it will ever work but if it doesn't work then the OP in the thread will know that someone with some decency and maturity did try to stop it without fueling the flame ware and that's one of the goals. At least we tried.

I do think we are going to need a Time out/duke it out thread (or whatever you might want to call it) part 2 so they have room to fight....this one is getting pretty well massive and eventually needs to die off the page. RobySue and I already discussed the fact that there will likely need to be Part 2 or Part 3 or whatever.





If you guys want to start a new OT thread and call it something else....be my guest. I don't care what it is called and I mean that from the bottom of my heart and I don't care how many of such threads are out there just as long as they are marked OT.
And while I knew there would be lot of discussion in this thread I didn't anticipate to this level and I actually think maybe Time out or Duke it out thread number 2 without all this would be a good idea....and if you don't like the "time out " idea or "duke it out" come up with what you think is better.

[Grace~~~]

Pugsy you are really amazing at how much work, thought and energy you are putting in to this solution. Everything seems so peaceful right now that it is difficult to imagine there ever being trouble again?

~~~I did have one thought I was trying to figure out how to share?~~~

I am often in the 'outside the box' thinking and so I have an outside the box thought that maybe could be thrown in the back of the tool chest? I guess I am thinking of it more from the new person who has just come to cpaptalk. I hope I will be able to explain reason behind the idea?

OK


~~~maybe~~~ if a situation got really bad in their thread it might be an idea to compose something to the OP and not the 'highjackers'? (in some cases). Also without asking them to 'make a new thread' but making one for them ~~~ as a host would make a drink for a guest?

The idea is based on a feeling that people may be inclined / attracted towards their name and a direct question asked of them.

If you really thought a thread was a mess it is usually not anger or 'flames' directed toward a new OP. (Even though I guess it could be someone being mean or making fun of someone brand new?) However, my idea is more about a new OP 'caught in cross fire' since that seems to be what Pugsy and this thread has been talking about and trying to solve.




Would it be an idea to just rescue OP in some cases?

example -

Hi, OP ShinyNew. You might have noticed that this "I need help" thread you made has gotten busy. What we usually do when this happens is to move the real helping questions and answers to a new thread so please allow me , as I have made you a NEW special "OP, ShinyNew - I need help" thread.

That way we can get right on track back focusing on HELPING YOU, OP, ShinyNew.

...but you can continue to post here too if you'd like.
You have TWO threads now. Lucky you

Then you could start the new thread with a humorous post about "Here make yourself comfortable, let me get you some tea" ... other helpful people could immediately stop in (be on look out for) and say "hi" or sorry about that (like you do when a baby cries or a the dogs start barking and it takes your attention away for a moment but then you get right back to your client or guest).

The OP, would no doubt feel very cared for and special and not likely to be insulted in anyway about there being a new thread or it seems it might be easier to relocate a OP and not have the fight back in the way a "highjacker? angry person' might.

Then the title of the new thread would be the OP name and their original subject so it would be easy for them to find?

A couple extra nice posts by helpful people who really would like to participate and be useful could flush out the new thread and keep get it rolling. Maybe they could repeat a salient point from the old thread like " OP, ShinyNew, you mentioned that "quote from old thread" and a relevant me too, or just kind, or positive answer?" Even let the OP know that they can go back to old thread and join in fight if they want?

...or someone could ask OP, ShinyNew if they would like their other posts moved over to this new thread?
(since presumably a new person may not know how and there are so many here who would like to help a newbie but don't really have a roll to play since they do not have cpap expertise ... but they may know how to move posts?)

~~~anyway~~~

This is just a rough idea ... but maybe it's a 'paradigm shift' of rescuing a new and likely congenial newbie and creating a new 'BETTER' space for them. Instead of focusing all the attention on the other side of the problem?

(To understand what I am saying ...Think maybe this scenario? ... "Oh gosh, I'm sorry. (laugh) the dogs are all fired up cause the mailman is outside so let's go take this to the garden room where it's quiet and the view is lovely and I have fresh baked cookies. May I get you some tea, or a coke? Now where were we?)

It may be easier to graciously move the guest than to control the dogs. Because, as a doberman girl myself? *I* love having security dogs even if they are a little ummm ... energetic at times.

I think part of what makes CPAPTALK great and vital is the energy.
If it was all moderated and spell checked and 'just the facts'? Why not just have a robot computer give you the answer?

Like a jnk post from a while ago upthread.
You've got to consider a lot of people would rather THIS environment than a place with a lot of confusing rules.

I know *I would* ...

Someone welcomed me with "Hey bitch are you drunk?" and along with the other myriad personalities that answered ... it felt MUCH BETTER *to me* ... which is I guess why I am even typing this now?


~~~just another outside the box POV to consider.

[Pugsy]

Hi Grace...short on time so just a quick note.
I have PM'd the OP in a thread that got derailed...so that is indeed an option except for when people aren't registered and logged in...no way to send a PM to those people.

And yes...things are rather quiet in the other threads right now. Couple of minor jabs but nothing really bad and nothing we can't just live with.
They are too busy duking it out here.
It's the normal cycle we sometimes go through here..I have no illusions that this will last. I would love to be proven wrong though.

[kteague]

If the same people being offensive are being "corrected" by the same people with whom they have been in chronic conflict, there is no way to say it right. Those personalities and history remain. I implore those people (however well intentioned) to pass the baton - allow someone else to further the cause. If you cannot be seen as impartial your words will be seen as just another battering ram under the guise of civility.

[robysue]

If the same people being offensive are being "corrected" by the same people with whom they have been in chronic conflict, there is no way to say it right. Those personalities and history remain. I implore those people (however well intentioned) to pass the baton - allow someone else to further the cause. If you cannot be seen as impartial your words will be seen as just another battering ram under the guise of civility.

+100

Kteague has hit the nail on the head: If you have a long history of tangling with Person X, then *any* attempt to "correct" Person X or ask Person X to take the conversation elsewhere is going to be seen as "just another battering ram under the guise of civility." And that could, and probably will, escalate the problem.

[Pugsy]

+100

Kteague has hit the nail on the head: If you have a long history of tangling with Person X, then *any* attempt to "correct" Person X or ask Person X to take the conversation elsewhere is going to be seen as "just another battering ram under the guise of civility." And that could, and probably will, escalate the problem.

Bingo. My biggest fear is that the "posse" will just change ropes. Maybe try to hide the rope a little better.

[robysue]

The Southerner in me would make the suggestion to change "you" to "you all" or "y'all" so as to make it clear that both (all) the "so and so's" who are having the argument understand that nobody is being singled out, but rather that everybody involved in the heated discussion should take the argument somewhere other than the helping thread so that the helping thread can get back on topic.

Good point and should be easy for me...born in Arkansas and all that.
Southerner and redneck all rolled into one.
I certainly know that taking an accusatory tone is just likely to poor gasoline on the flames.
Gotta kill them with kindness so they can't come back calling me a bully/jerk/asshole/dick too.
I also won't be quoting the ugly comments. No sense...we all know they are there anyway.

This composition stuff sucks and it's even more important to get it just right in this situation.
You are so good at this stuff...any ideas running through your mind lately?

So here are my suggestions:

1) If you are concerned about other people's posts clearly getting out of hand and disrupting a helping thread AND you don't have a personal history of tangling with the offenders:

• To Person A and Person B: Can y'all please take your discussion elsewhere so that the OP can get some help?

2) If you are INVOLVED in the flame war and you just can't resist continuing to poke back at the poster(s) who are poking at you, but you also realize it's gotten out of control and has taken over the helping thread:

• To Person A: I think we need to take our discussion elsewhere and I'm now posting my responses to your posts in this thread here: <link to this thread or a new thread>

But in this case you have to mean it: No more responding to Person A in the helping thread no matter how many evil names s/he calls you and no matter how unwarranted those evil names might be.


3) If you are concerned about other people's posts clearly getting out of hand AND you DO have a personal history of tangling with one or more of the offenders:

• DO NOT post anything in response to any of the offenders' posts. Let someone else---someone who has NOT tangled with the offenders---request that the offenders take their comments elsewhere. STOP reading the thread if you have to if that's the only way to resist the temptation to "call" the offenders out for their behavior.

And then there's also this comment I want to make:

• Once someone HAS requested that the offenders take their arguments elsewhere, GIVE the offenders the CHANCE to take it elsewhere. It is NOT going to be useful for a whole bunch of other people to pile on even with +1 posts before the offenders have a chance to move their conversation elsewhere. Not only will a whole bunch of +1 posts or "I agree" posts or "Yes get out of here posts" just clutter up the helping thread, they are likely to be misinterpreted by the offenders and they could encourage the offenders to spread the flame war further.

[Lucyhere]

If the same people being offensive are being "corrected" by the same people with whom they have been in chronic conflict, there is no way to say it right. Those personalities and history remain. I implore those people (however well intentioned) to pass the baton - allow someone else to further the cause. If you cannot be seen as impartial your words will be seen as just another battering ram under the guise of civility.

Hi K... good point and I agree. One but... "most" people don't stay on the forum 24 hours a day. Sometimes I log on my time... 11:30pm, and for folks on the East coast it's 3:00am and most are sleeping. (Similar for folks out of the country). I know not to call my sister past 8:00pm my time, because I'd get bloody hell.

I've seen many "arguments" at that time of nite. So, do we on the West coast wait until some folks on the East coast (who don't have a previous history with a particular poster) wakes up, has coffee, etc., and logs on?

I donno... just some additional thoughts. I suppose we on the West coast could ignore the thread... maybe.

[robysue]

If the same people being offensive are being "corrected" by the same people with whom they have been in chronic conflict, there is no way to say it right. Those personalities and history remain. I implore those people (however well intentioned) to pass the baton - allow someone else to further the cause. If you cannot be seen as impartial your words will be seen as just another battering ram under the guise of civility.

Hi K... good point and I agree. One but... "most" people don't stay on the forum 24 hours a day. Sometimes I log on my time... 11:30pm, and for folks on the East coast it's 3:00am and most are sleeping. (Similar for folks out of the country). I know not to call my sister past 8:00pm my time, because I'd get bloody hell.

I've seen many "arguments" at that time of nite. So, do we on the West coast wait until some folks on the East coast (who don't have a previous history with a particular poster) wakes up, has coffee, etc., and logs on?

If you personally happen to have a (long) history of tangling with one or more of the people in the cat-fight and you post anything that can be perceived by the one or more of the offending posters as "chiding", I guarantee you that the cat-fight will just continue to get worse. And when those of us on the East Coast do get up the next morning things are a lot more out-of-control than when we went to bed.

I donno... just some additional thoughts. I suppose we on the West coast could ignore the thread... maybe.

Yes---if you have a personal history of tangling with the offending posters, the best thing you can do is to just ignore the thread and wait for somebody who does NOT have a personal history of tangling with the offenders.

On the other hand, if you do NOT have a personal history of tangling with the offenders, then it is reasonable to make a NEUTRAL, non-chiding post asking all the people in the fight to take their discussion elsewhere. Your request may be ignored. The fight may continue. And the offenders may even regard your post as "chiding" them or calling them out no matter how neutral you try to make it. And the offending posters may very well try to drag you into their catfight. And at that point, it's important to NOT escalate things by plunging into the fight armed for bear as they say in the South.

[Stormynights]

No one person can argue with themself. It takes two and no matter who starts it it takes two or more to keep it going. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. You shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. I only wish some could see how childish and stupid this is. Having the last word just isn't anything that makes you sound more mature or right.

[robysue]

No one person can argue with themself. It takes two and no matter who starts it it takes two or more to keep it going. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. You shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up. I only wish some could see how childish and stupid this is. Having the last word just isn't anything that makes you sound more mature or right.

+1

My younger brother is 1 year and 1 week younger than I am. When we would get into these kinds of fights as kids, my mother would always come back with, "I don't care who started it. You're both wrong. And then she'd send us into separate corners for time out.

[Stormynights]

I did that with my children but I promised to cut their time out time in half if they could show me how they could argue by themselves. No one ever got their time cut in half.

[jnk...]

When I arrived as a newbie to this forum, I understood that it was only 'lightly moderated' by the owners, but once I grasped the then-predominant social dynamics in play, I came to view a few of the more helpful longtimers as de facto moderators. (Rested Gal, -SWS, et al.) It wasn't a role that they saw themselves as playing, but to everyone else who wasn't there (here) to troll, the slightest rebuke from them carried a lot of weight.

[robysue]

When I arrived as a newbie to this forum, I understood that it was only 'lightly moderated' by the owners, but once I grasped the then-predominant social dynamics in play, I came to view a few of the more helpful longtimers as de facto moderators. (Rested Gal, -SWS, et al.) It wasn't a role that they saw themselves as playing, but to everyone else who wasn't there (here) to troll, the slightest rebuke from them carried a lot of weight.

I agree. When I was first starting out DoriC, Rested Gal, JohnBFisher, -SWS and several others did play the role of de facto moderators and slight rebukes from them did seem to bring people into line.

But ...

-SWS last posted on Feb. 11, 2015. (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103419&p=976831#p976831)

JohnBFisher last posted on Sept. 28, 2015. (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=104752&p=1029768#p1029768)

Rested Gal last posted on Oct 3, 2015. (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108041&p=1030690#p1030690)

And DoriC has not posted here since about 4 months after her husband died. Her last post was on June 24, 2015 when bad behavior on the forum was apparently a hot issue because her last post reads:

I've received many loving messages over these last few months but couldn't bring myself to post here. This forum was such a big part of my caregiver role that I had to let it go along with many other parts of that other life. The last message I got was asking me to check up on my "kids" so I just briefly scanned some of the threads and my first question is....who's in charge of "time outs"?? I was always fearful that this occasional ongoing bashing would scare away newbies who desperately needed our help but obviously it hasn't as I see many new faces who have also joined in the "fun" ! Actually it made me feel a bit nostalgic for the good old days but this mother is on permanent leave now so all I can ask is that you behave yourselves and share your wisdom and good spirits as no other forum can. I am forever grateful for the help and friendship I received here. Hope to check in again soon.

[kteague]

Oh Lucyhere, this forum will move along just fine without any one of us here, whether for a few hours or forever. It may be a loss, a felt void, but this has been the cycle of life on here long before either of us arrived. But if you are so compelled, here is my example of an appropriate non-escalating response.

1. OP says something clueless.
2. Someone calls them stupid.
3. You say, "There's a lot to learn about this stuff. I remember coming here knowing almost nothing of the lingo or how it all works. Keep reading and focus on those subjects that relate to you and soon you'll be jumping in to help another out as they start their journey.
END OF STORY.

Counter the offense with support for the OP without mention of the offender or the offense. The board doesn't need you or I for it to be evident someone is being a jerk. The tit-for-tat just adds to the list of who looks bad. If our goal really is to protect the OP, we will not add words to start wars on their thread. That's the bottom line for me. If I post words I know are incendiary, my own motives become suspect. As one who is both a talker and a crusader by nature, one of the hardest things for me to accept has been that sometimes I just need to shut up. Leave some work for somebody else to do.