Three comments:SleepyEyes21 wrote: I agree it takes 'two (or more) people to start a flame war;' however, the individuals aren't always just the one bully and the one victim. I can agree that 'sometimes the best way to handle cyberbullying is to just ignore it.' However, that is not the only effective way to handle all cyberbullying and it is not the only way that works for different types of cyberbullies.
1) As jnk pointed out, "Don't Feed the Trolls" is a commonly accepted, but widely ignored, rule on a lot of internet forums. In forums with significant moderation of posts "Don't Feed the Trolls" is as heavily enforced as "Don't Be a Troll" because it turns out that people will disagree on where the line is between being a troll and not being a troll.
2) Since you think that ignoring the bullying is "not the only effective way to handle all cyberbulllying", kindly tell us what you do think a good way of handling the bullying is, but do keep in mind Johnny's Rules. In other words, for this forum, "More Moderation" is just not going to happen.
3) In my humble opinion, when a person chooses to regularly counter attack the bullies with bullying language of his/her own, that person becomes part of the problem, not the solution. You are entitled to disagree with my opinion. You are entitled to persuade me with a logical argument about why my opinion is wrong in your opinion, and I'll listen to what you have to say. On this forum you are also entitled to call me any name you like and disagree with my opinion in a childish, silly fashion by personally attacking me rather than making an argument for why you disagree with my opinion. I'll then do my best to ignore your personal attacks. Can I promise with 100% certainty that I'll ignore them? Alas, no: I'm just a fallible human being and I do occasionally get snookered into useless flame wars. And I often regret it after the fact.
I think you are correct. There are a few members who are irritated with you when you start feeding the trolls. I'll go further: I think there are a number of members who believe that you are one of the bullies because you sometimes counterattack with language that can be interpreted as bullying language of your own.I strongly suspect that there are quite a few members who are irritated with me because I don't follow the forum 'norm' of "ignore the bullies."
Yes, there are group norms that are not written.I've been a member for a little over two years, and although there are no written rules by Members (other than Johnny's rules, of course), there are 'unspoken, inherent' group norms that most active members are strongly encouraged to follow. Group norming is a common behavior for all types of groups of people; Google it. Contrary to popular belief, I do not respond to the bullies 'just to cause trouble' or 'to point them out to others' (which seems to be a favorite theme.) If you can't read my mind, then you don't understand my thoughts; therefore you don't know my reasons for responding to the bullies. You can assume, but you know what they say...
I'll even choose not to argue with your statement, "Contrary to popular belief, I do not respond to the bullies 'just to cause trouble' or 'to point them out to others' (which seems to be a favorite theme.) If you can't read my mind, then you don't understand my thoughts; therefore you don't know my reasons for responding to the bullies."
But here's the thing that you don't seem to understand: There IS an unwritten, but unenforceable, "group norm" that one should in general "Not Feed the Trolls" or at the very least, "Think Carefully about Feeding the Trolls" and IF you choose to feed the trolls, the group norm around here is that the way you respond should make sense: In other words, IF you choose to feed the trolls, your response should be well written enough to make it clear why you are feeding the troll by launching a personal attack.
And around here there's another unwritten "group norm" that is: "Bullies should be treated like trolls: Ignore the bullying as much as possible". This group norm is widely ignored, particularly by some posters, including some long term posters, often because "bullying" is in the eyes of the beholder. But the group norm is still there in principle.
And you are right: We can't read your mind. Hence you have an obligation to write in a fashion that is clear enough where forum members don't need to read your mind to understand why you are choosing to respond to bullies in a fashion that seems to be crossing into bullying behavior yourself. If you don't want people misinterpreting what you write, then make sure that what you write clearly conveys your thoughts so that others cannot misinterpret what you are saying and doing.
Pugsy's point with THIS thread is an attempt to change the unwritten group rules about feeding the trolls and bullies: Pugsy is tired of seeing Helping threads get hijacked by flame wars. She knows she can't change human behavior. She knows that Johnny and Carolyn are not going to re-write the official Rules and increase moderation and she doesn't really want the forum to become a moderated forum. But what she can and has done is offer the forum a place to take the flame wars instead of hijacking the helping thread.
Pugsy has NEVER said in this thread that people have no right to respond to what they regard as personal attacks or bullying. She HAS asked that such responses should be moved to THIS thread rather than being left in the Helping thread. And by ASKING forum members to move their responses to this thread, she is trying to get the forum to adopt a new unwritten group norm. Will she be successful? Only time will tell. But I do wish her well on that endeavour.
You have the right to not apologize. And I have the right to express my opinion that you or anybody else should apologize when I see something that bothers me. You (or anybody else) can choose to ignore my opinion and not apologize, but you (and everybody else) have no right to tell me that I am not entitled to my opinion.I'm not going to apologize for not meeting this particular forum norm.
I've been a member of the forum for over 6 years. Yes, the bullying has gotten worse, particular since Dori left the forum after the death of her husband. In my humble opinion part of why the bullying has gotten worse is that MORE people are responding to the bullies with bullying language of their own. Six years ago Dori COULD and DID tell people, "Time OUT" when they were responding to bullies with bullying language of their own, and most people LISTENED to her.I have watched the bullying for over two years, and it has gotten worse and worse. In my opinion, ignoring hasn't done much to keep it at bay.
I will add this: There ARE times when responding to the bullies is necessary. But NAME CALLING right back does NOT work. Once upon a time there was a possible troll who might also have been a possible real person with serious problems with CPAP, insomnia and a host of other related and unrelated issues. His threads and posts were rambling and full of "Yes, but ...." excuses for not taking advice from a lot of people. And as the threads and posts continued with more and more "Yes, but ..." excuses, more and more people on the forum became convinced that Poster X was a troll and a nasty one at that. But *I* happened to think that the probability that this was a real person was at least equal to the probability that Poster X was a troll. I was probably one of a tiny handful of members who thought Poster X might not be a troll. And on one of helping threads for Poster X a lot of people started to pile on with "Quit yer denial" attacks of Poster X that got quite heated because Poster X responded with personal, nasty counterattacks of his own. Very soon some longtime posters who I respect started telling me to give up my long "helping" posts because I was wasting my time and feeding the troll. I wrote a very pointed, but polite rejoinder that started with, "What skin off your nose is it if I choose to help Poster X?" That ended most of the useless name calling on that thread and I was able to continue attempting to help Poster X. Yes, Poster X disappeared shortly afterwards, possibly because my telling him he absolutely NEEDED to see a doctor or possibly because he was a troll who was no longer getting enough jollies out of disrupting the forum. And I'll be honest, to this day I think that there was a 50-50 chance he was a troll, maybe more.
My point with this story is this: If you are actually writing HELPING posts to an OP who you think is being wrongly subjected by bullying, then it can be appropriate to tell the folks you think are bullying to bug off and let you "waste your time" helping the OP. And they MAY listen to you as long as it is clear that you are engaging in trying to HELP to OP by answering the OP's questions at length.
But if all you've got to contribute to the thread is "Quit being a bully" (particularly if that's written more colorful language), then you are not actually helping the OP or effectively toning down the bullying.
Pugsy is also an assertive person who does her best to clear up misunderstandings. So am I. So are the vast majority of long time (5+ year) posters.I am an assertive person, so will usually try to clear up misunderstandings by posting.
You are not as different as you think you are. Except for ONE thing: You do seem to be much more inclined to take the bait when someone starts the senseless name calling and you sometimes respond in ways that are NOT useful to the helping thread.I am different from a lot of you all, I am sure.. but that's okay.
And I suppose Granny is going to remind me that Thanksgiving is coming 
