Is ZEO accurate?

[SuzyFor2]

Just heard about the product ZEO. Has anyone used it and do you feel it is accurate? Is the info generated helpful? I purchased the EncoreViewer for my Respironics CPAP and have had a devil of a time getting it to work. It requires a 32-bit machine. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Pugsy]

What model PR System One machine do you have? Is it a 60 series machine by any chance?
If so EncoreViewer won't work at all with that model even if you did have a 32 bit computer.
If you have the prior model PR System One machine and not the 60 series machine there is a work around for that 32 bit problem.
One has to bypass the install procedure. It involves doing an install on a 32 bit computer...copying the files and folders to a disc...putting that disc in the 64 bit computer and pasting the contents of the disc and finding the application exe file and using it to open Viewer.
Or you can just use EncoreBasic which installs easily on 32 or 64 bit computers and also works with the new and older models of PR S1 machines.
Send me a private message if you want EncoreBasic. It's free. If you have a 60 series machine then your Viewer purchase was a total waste of your money.
If you have the prior model PR S1 machine Viewer will work but it doesn't offer wave form data. Encore Basic does.

I will let the others comment on the Zeo. From what I have read about 75% accurate per Zeo website.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Suzy, follow this link for lots of posts about Zeo on this site.

https://www.google.com/search?source=ig ... 5R7Q7jOGqM

Or, put this in the google search box: Zeo site:cpaptalk.com
Or, put Zeo* in this site's search box

Jay

[themonk]

Is it accurate? For the most part, it appears it is. You can review the report below for specifics but in a nutshell it correlates to a PSG fairly well for the majority of people.

http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/sites/defaul ... poster.pdf

If you want personal experience, I have compared the Zeo sleep stage data with breathing wave form data from Encore and found it to match to the minute for breathing patterns that would be identifiable, specifically REM sleep. I trust the data for how I use it, which is to watch sleep trends over time.

Is it helpful, I think so. It has given me a lot of very useful data on how much I actually sleep, which is helpful for someone with insomnia-type issues. It has basically given me confidence that I don't have insomnia and actually sleep better than 90% of Zeo users when I don't wear my PAP machine. When I do, my sleep is a mess. Work in progress.

For me, the takeaway from all of this is how unreliable the supposedly 'gold standard' PSG is. Another conversation, I suppose. I do recommend the Zeo if you want to trend your sleep and look at ways of improving the quality.

[The Sheikh]

If you want personal experience, I have compared the Zeo sleep stage data with breathing wave form data from Encore and found it to match to the minute for breathing patterns that would be identifiable, specifically REM sleep.

Monk,

Not including the Zeo, I'm curious what "breathing patterns" you identify REM sleep using the breathing flow rate (or some other waveform?) compared to say, the awakened state?

I can see the deep sleep by the low level, stable breathing, and the light sleep by a slightly higher level, but the Rem seems more difficult. So far I identify the REM and wakened states by the occassional breathing spikes and greater activity compared to the other lower levels.

Do you use other methods?

Tom

[themonk]

Tom,

I look for when things go somewhat haywire in my breathing, kind of a move from normal, fairly stable peaks and valleys, to something more jagged and less predictable. That is about as good as I can get w/ the data I have, but I figure if the Zeo matches time and time again with that type of pattern, it must be fairly accurate. I haven't done this type of monitoring in a while and didn't have access to an Oximeter when I did, but it would be interesting to see if there are any O2/PR level changes as well. Maybe one of these days I'll put all of the data together.

I don't consider it conclusive, but I have also had instances of waking from a dream and immediately looking over at my Zeo/Ipad and seeing I was in REM. Probably more than most would care to hear, but this type of thing also correlates with the *ahem* physical changes that happen in a man during REM.

Anywho, looking at all of the data I have available, I am cool w/ the Zeo. Honestly, I am cooler with the Zeo than the PSG which seems to be the Wild West of medical tests.

[The Sheikh]

Thanks for the info, Monk.

OK on the haywire breathing departing from the norm. I definately see that also. And Zeo does conform reasonably well to this. I think Zeo is most accurate showing deep sleep, followed by light sleep. I can also see the wake-ups when a bad mask leak occurs and the breathing gets erratic. Zeo catches these reasonably well.

However, there are times when there are obvious departures from accuracy as the website admits. I would give it the same 70-80% accuracy. The trends and data format is more concise than using the looser SleepyHead data all the time.

I find the O2 levels, using a CS-55H, a little too coarse to arrive any any conclusions, however. But it is nice to see the O2 stay above 95% most of the night with a rare dip down to 92%. Heck, my sleep study showed 82% at times, so I'm happy.


Tom

[jnk]

. . . do you feel it is accurate? . . .

Compared to what?

Compared to nuthin', it is very accurate.

Compared to PSG at a lab/center, maybe not so much.

It is likely to confirm that a person has some REM and some deep sleep, but not necessarily differentiate between wake and REM all that well at times, for example.

The main thing to understand about Zeo is that it isn't marketed as a medical tool by the Zeo dudes because, well, it isn't one. The disclaimer the Zeo dudes give that it isn't designed to be used in conjunction with a medical therapy is not just a matter of their covering their own butts--it is true.

Zeo is designed to allow for sleep coaching--to allow a person to learn good sleep hygiene habits in particular. For that purpose, it is, in my opinion, absolutely the best thing going, hands down. Good sleep hygiene can make a big difference in any person's life, and especially so for people who have had sleep troubles much of their life.

Just the opinion of one guy on the Internet, so it must be true.

[VikingGnome]

ZEO does have some inaccuracies. For example, if you lay real still and just stare into space without focusing and not really thinking about anything, Zeo will say you are sleeping. I think it does a good job in identifying REM sleep. But it has problems finding DEEP SLEEP. But it's better than nothing. I does give me a better idea of what's going on when I'm in bed.

[chunkyfrog]

It knows more than I do, but less than the lab.
It's way less pricey, and the bullfrog doesn't have to sleep all trussed up, having to deal with arrogant nitwits all night.
(except me)

[Slartybartfast]

Chunky might have said it best. I don't disagree that it's better than guessing, not as good as a PSG.

For a differnt perspective, check out the reviews at Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/Zeo-ZEOBP01-Perso ... ewpoints=1

When you look at the signal from a PSG it's awfully hard (for me) to believe that a simple and inexpensive device like the Zeo can tweeze a signal from all the noise inherent in the data in order to make the call accurately enough to reliably identify the stages of sleep. A trained Homo sapiens (even you or I) can do it, but humans are inherently pretty amazingly good at finding patterns of useful information in seemingly random data. Our survival depends on it. Complex, sophisticated electronic devices can also do it quite well. Simple electronic devices, not so much.

I don't have one; I don't need one; I don't believe they are very accurate.

[jnk]

One of the primary Zeo dudes himself says it like it is, and says it very well, in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmCHXSKI9U

[Jay Aitchsee]

ZEO does have some inaccuracies. For example, if you lay real still and just stare into space without focusing and not really thinking about anything, Zeo will say you are sleeping.

Yes, and if you held your breath a couple times your S9 would erroneously report apneas.

[lazer]

One of the primary Zeo dudes himself says it like it is, and says it very well, in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmCHXSKI9U

Interesting. Something caught my attention in this video clip:

We lump stages 3 (and 4) into Deep Sleep

I show very minimal if any "Deep Sleep" according to Zeo but I am getting considerable REM lately. I thought REM was Stage #3 or am I wrong

Edit: Nevermind, I just googled and answered my own question.

Stage 1
Stage 1 sleep is light sleep. You experience a drifting in and out of sleep. You can be easily woken up. Your eye movement and body movements slow down. You may experience sudden jerky movement of your legs or other muscles. These are known as hypnic myoclonia or myoclonic jerks. These “sleep starts” can give a sensation of falling. They are caused by the motor areas of the brain being spontaneously stimulated.
Stage 2
Around 50 percent of your time sleeping is spent in stage 2 sleep. During this stage, eye movement stops and your brain waves (a measure of the activity level of the brain) become slower. There will also be brief bursts of rapid brain activity called sleep spindles.
Stage 3
Stage 3 is the first stage of deep sleep. The brain waves are a combination of slow waves, known as delta waves, combined with faster waves. During stage 3 sleep it can be very difficult to wake someone up. If you are woken up during this stage, you may feel groggy and disoriented for several minutes.
Stage 4
Stage 4 sleep is the second stage of deep sleep. In this stage the brain is making the slow delta waves almost exclusively. In this stage it is also very difficult to wake someone up. Both stages of deep sleep are important for feeling refreshed in the morning. If these stages are too short, sleep will not feel satisfying.
REM Sleep – Rapid Eye Movement
REM sleep is the sleep stage in which dreaming occurs. When you enter into REM sleep, your breathing becomes fast, irregular and shallow. Your eyes will move rapidly and your muscles become immobile. Heart rate and blood pressure increase. Men may develop erections. About 20 percent of sleep is REM sleep for adults.

REM sleep is also the phase of sleep in which you dream. This sleep phase begins about 70 to 90 minutes after you fall asleep. The first sleep cycle has a shorter phase of REM sleep. Toward morning, the time spent in REM sleep increases and the deep sleep stages decrease.

Researchers do not fully understand REM sleep and dreaming. They know it is important in the creation of long-term memories. If a person’s REM sleep is disrupted, the next sleep cycle does not follow the normal order, but often goes directly to REM sleep until the previous night’s lost REM time is made up.

Source: http://longevity.about.com/od/sleep/a/sleep_stages.htm

[chunkyfrog]

The reduction of the traditional 4 stages into 3 is allegedly based on increased understanding about the stages themselves.
I suppose it's something like the brontosaurus thing. (evolutionists, please look away)