OT - Obamacare

[OhHelpMe]

I'm tired of those that think they're entitled.

I take it then you're tired of the Wall Street tycoons who believe they are entitled to run their financial empires with no regard to what impacts their decisions will have on the greater American populace.

I think you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction.
I believe the "bought-and-paid-for" politicians need to be at the top of the list. Sure, there's lots of blame to go around, but if they hadn't repealed "Glass-Steagall" in 1999 ("Gramm-Leach-Bliley" was signed into law by Clinton), alot of this "scenery" would look alot different today. It was a combined effort by both parties and some of the bankers who masqueraded as cabinet members in those revolving doors.

We have a huge mess back there in D C and far too many of the players have found out how to get rich and loot the coffers of this country.


Den

.

Why do all of you keep electing Ivy Leaguers? Elected officials and Wall Street execs are in it together from day one. There doesn't have to be any buying and selling. They are a pack that has been running around together at least since their college days. They all understand that they will collect wealth into their own pockets by sticking together.

No need to worry about Wall Street. Just elect incorruptibles from flyover country. Then you have to watch them very carefully because they will succumb to corruption. Vote them out quickly and send up another round.

If they have no buddies in D.C., Wall Street will be a good thing for the average citizen. It is only the power and protection that politicians give to Wall Street that makes them dangerous.

So I ask all of you again, why do you keep electing Ivy Leaguers?

[deerhound]

Maybe if Republicans had not been so hardnosed when the original bill was written (since pulled to pieces trying to satisfy them) it would have done what it was intended to do. Now no one's happy, but I wouldn't blame Democrats for that.

Republicans weren't invited to the party. Democrats own Obamacare and all the damage it is doing. They could have forced a good workable law through just as easily as the disaster called Obamacare. Should have read it first!

Are you kidding me? The republicans have been obstructionists from the very beginning. If they had made some attempt to actually meet the president half way, they wouldn't have the imperfect act that we have. However, the act must move forward. As soon as others see that we're driving down the cost of health care, some of the details of the act can be modified. No more of this fear mongering death panel BS. The republicans will have to act like grown ups and stop getting in the dang way. I think that labeling the Affordable Care Act as Obamacare will bite the republicans in the butt when it becomes a success. Republicans will hear that name for the rest of their lives and try to call is Romneycare in the future.

I like how you blame the Republicans for Obamacare being a disaster. Democrats wrote the bill. They could have forced a GOOD law through just as easily, but instead passed this bloated, crony benefiting law. Somehow that is supposed to be the Republican's fault?

[deerhound]

I'm tired of those that think they're entitled.

I take it then you're tired of the Wall Street tycoons who believe they are entitled to run their financial empires with no regard to what impacts their decisions will have on the greater American populace.

Those people OWN Obama and the Democrats. Just look at all the bribes, er, I mean campaign donations they pay to the Democrats and Obama especially.

[idamtnboy]

I'm tired of those that think they're entitled.

I take it then you're tired of the Wall Street tycoons who believe they are entitled to run their financial empires with no regard to what impacts their decisions will have on the greater American populace.

Those people OWN Obama and the Democrats. Just look at all the bribes, er, I mean campaign donations they pay to the Democrats and Obama especially.

But at least they didn't birth them like they do the Repubs! Blood relationship is thicker than ownership!

[idamtnboy]

I like how you blame the Republicans for Obamacare being a disaster. Democrats wrote the bill. They could have forced a GOOD law through just as easily, but instead passed this bloated, crony benefiting law. Somehow that is supposed to be the Republican's fault?

Remember, Obama had to placate the blue dog dems as well. The only way he could a bill passed was to let big parts of it get written by medical and insurance lobbyists. And note your comment about Wall Street owning Obama and Dems. The medical and insurance industry also owns a lot of them. The ACA got passed only because Obama placated the industry with its provisions. So Republicans, in the large sense of the word, do own a huge part of it.

[SMenasco]

Even more bureaucrat liberal bullshit.

[woodworkerjunkie]

I love the way it's always the Republicans fault! It doesn't matter whether it is a Dem or Rep President, whether the house and senate is controlled by Rep or Dems. It's always the Republicans fault. No, I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative, leaning more toward the "Tea Party" values. I believe there are a lot of republicans that need to go home for good, along with most of the Democrats! Straighten out the mess these two parties have made of our constitution, and get away from all this political correctness and put silent prayer and God back in our schools. "THERE IS NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IN OUR CONSTITUTION!!!!!"

I don't care how many supposed concessions Obama had to make to get his bill passed. If he didn't like the deal, then he should not have accepted it! This is HIS bill and he will have to take the blame for it! He can't blame this on George Bush!!!! OH, and I love how transparent this administration has been. And, if you think Obamacare is going to reduce cost, you have lost your mind. It's already doing an excellent job of tearing our economy apart! Reports are out showing the average annual cost of healthcare increases by 7% each year, but is expected to rise to over 14% in 2014! People are already paying into this program and no benefits are being paid out yet. Imagine how quick this is going to sink when they actually have to start paying out benefits! I guess a lot of people will have to get used to working two jobs in order to make ends meet. That's "IF" they can find a second job! Our great king is doing such a fine job of revitalizing our economy! Slowest recovery coming out of a recession in our history!

While we are on this great socialism kick, I want to know when the king is going to start paying for my food and paying my water bill. Free food and water should be a right too! After all, I need the government to pay for all of this, so that I can afford to buy a new car and finally own an I-phone, like so many of the people that I see in the grocery stores using their EBT cards while talking on their I-phones and carrying their groceries out to their 2 year old car.

The people with their hands out to the government are no better than all the corporate's and lobbyist you are screaming about. Everyone wants the government to fix "their" problems, while letting the government take away our freedoms. Tax everyone else, so that you can have "their" money. Let the younger generation pay for it, after all you'll be dead and gone and don't give a rats a** about what they will have to face when they get older! You ought to be ashamed of yourselves! I guess most of you don't care about all the men, women and children that lost their lives fighting for the freedoms we had in this country, that you are willing to just throw away as long as it puts "money" in your pocket or fixes "your" problem. It's all about ME! To He*l with everybody else. That is the mentality of our country and most all the people! If you don't believe me, drive down the interstate into a mid or large city. Watch how people drive today, always in a hurry, cutting people off, flashing their lights trying to get people to move over out of their way, flipping people the middle finger. Not paying attention to their driving, they are too busy texting, talking on cell phone, eating, reading books or newspapers, typing on a computer, changing clothes, or who knows what else. All of that while trying to run 80 or 90 mph down the highway. Everyone has the "ME" mentality. You can deny it all you want, but, you know deep down inside that it's true. This country is full of adult over grown spoiled brats! Everyone needs to realize, you don't turn to the government to fix your problems, you turn to God! Yes, I said it, God! And if me saying, "turn to God" offends you, I DON'T CARE! Freedom of Religion is in the Constitution, but, freedom from religion is not.

I was watching the news tonight, and they are starting it up again about how having to show a picture ID to vote, is discriminating against poor people and minorities. Why is it discriminating? If they can go down and sign up for Welfare, Public housing and Food stamps, then they can go down and get a pictured ID! I'm tired of reading about all the dead people that are still voting, pets voting, people voting 3,4, and even 5 times. Bus loads of mentally impaired people being brought in and having someone else entering the votes for them. I'm sorry, but if they are not mentally aware enough to enter their own vote, then they should not be able to vote. Physically disabled, yes because they can watch and make sure the person is entering the vote properly. Everything dealing with the government in this country is corrupt!

I agree that no one should be excluded due to preexisting conditions, but that doesn't mean we had to totally destroy the system that we had in order to insure these people. I don't believe that anyone is entitled to free healthcare! If you use healthcare, you should pay for it! It's like anything else in life, if you want or need it, and you use it, pay for it! If you don't want to pay for it, don't use it!

I disappeared off this board for a while, because it is so overrun with libs and socialist and was making me sick, but, I'm back and not leaving anymore! I guess I'll just have to put up with having to run to the bathroom and toss my oats in the toilet!

[mcdover]

I love the way it's always the Republicans fault! It doesn't matter whether it is a Dem or Rep President, whether the house and senate is controlled by Rep or Dems. It's always the Republicans fault. No, I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative, leaning more toward the "Tea Party" values. I believe there are a lot of republicans that need to go home for good, along with most of the Democrats! Straighten out the mess these two parties have made of our constitution, and get away from all this political correctness and put silent prayer and God back in our schools. "THERE IS NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IN OUR CONSTITUTION!!!!!"

I don't care how many supposed concessions Obama had to make to get his bill passed. If he didn't like the deal, then he should not have accepted it! This is HIS bill and he will have to take the blame for it! He can't blame this on George Bush!!!! OH, and I love how transparent this administration has been. And, if you think Obamacare is going to reduce cost, you have lost your mind. It's already doing an excellent job of tearing our economy apart! Reports are out showing the average annual cost of healthcare increases by 7% each year, but is expected to rise to over 14% in 2014! People are already paying into this program and no benefits are being paid out yet. Imagine how quick this is going to sink when they actually have to start paying out benefits! I guess a lot of people will have to get used to working two jobs in order to make ends meet. That's "IF" they can find a second job! Our great king is doing such a fine job of revitalizing our economy! Slowest recovery coming out of a recession in our history!

While we are on this great socialism kick, I want to know when the king is going to start paying for my food and paying my water bill. Free food and water should be a right too! After all, I need the government to pay for all of this, so that I can afford to buy a new car and finally own an I-phone, like so many of the people that I see in the grocery stores using their EBT cards while talking on their I-phones and carrying their groceries out to their 2 year old car.

The people with their hands out to the government are no better than all the corporate's and lobbyist you are screaming about. Everyone wants the government to fix "their" problems, while letting the government take away our freedoms. Tax everyone else, so that you can have "their" money. Let the younger generation pay for it, after all you'll be dead and gone and don't give a rats a** about what they will have to face when they get older! You ought to be ashamed of yourselves! I guess most of you don't care about all the men, women and children that lost their lives fighting for the freedoms we had in this country, that you are willing to just throw away as long as it puts "money" in your pocket or fixes "your" problem. It's all about ME! To He*l with everybody else. That is the mentality of our country and most all the people! If you don't believe me, drive down the interstate into a mid or large city. Watch how people drive today, always in a hurry, cutting people off, flashing their lights trying to get people to move over out of their way, flipping people the middle finger. Not paying attention to their driving, they are too busy texting, talking on cell phone, eating, reading books or newspapers, typing on a computer, changing clothes, or who knows what else. All of that while trying to run 80 or 90 mph down the highway. Everyone has the "ME" mentality. You can deny it all you want, but, you know deep down inside that it's true. This country is full of adult over grown spoiled brats! Everyone needs to realize, you don't turn to the government to fix your problems, you turn to God! Yes, I said it, God! And if me saying, "turn to God" offends you, I DON'T CARE! Freedom of Religion is in the Constitution, but, freedom from religion is not.

I was watching the news tonight, and they are starting it up again about how having to show a picture ID to vote, is discriminating against poor people and minorities. Why is it discriminating? If they can go down and sign up for Welfare, Public housing and Food stamps, then they can go down and get a pictured ID! I'm tired of reading about all the dead people that are still voting, pets voting, people voting 3,4, and even 5 times. Bus loads of mentally impaired people being brought in and having someone else entering the votes for them. I'm sorry, but if they are not mentally aware enough to enter their own vote, then they should not be able to vote. Physically disabled, yes because they can watch and make sure the person is entering the vote properly. Everything dealing with the government in this country is corrupt!

I agree that no one should be excluded due to preexisting conditions, but that doesn't mean we had to totally destroy the system that we had in order to insure these people. I don't believe that anyone is entitled to free healthcare! If you use healthcare, you should pay for it! It's like anything else in life, if you want or need it, and you use it, pay for it! If you don't want to pay for it, don't use it!

I disappeared off this board for a while, because it is so overrun with libs and socialist and was making me sick, but, I'm back and not leaving anymore! I guess I'll just have to put up with having to run to the bathroom and toss my oats in the toilet!

I'm glad you took the time to write this. A lot of folks here needed to read this!

[Cutnstuf]

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper

[deerhound]

One of the worst aspects of Obamacare is that it is policed by the IRS, which Obama has had no qualms using as a political wing of the Democrat party. I fear that I, or anyone else for that matter, will have to become a member of the Democrat party (like the Communist party in the USSR) in order to actually receive healthcare. This type of law could be the driving force to a One Party Totalitarian government. Party elitists will receive the bulk of the benefits and the masses will get the scraps. I do not wish to support Democrats because I do not agree with what the party has become. I do not wish to have to join the Democrats in order to be served by my government! I remember the freedom I lived in in the 60's and 70's and I do not like the constant abridgment of freedom that we suffer today. If you look hard enough, there is a law against everything people do. One thing to remember is that The States created the Federal Government, not the other way around. The Federal Government was never meant to control every aspect of our lives. If NY, Michigan or California wish to be socialist, that is their choice. They should not ask for the other states to bail them out. If Texas or Idaho want to be free for business that should be their choice. The citizens of each state are free to choose. The Federal Government should not be taxing for, and forcing Socialism on the entire Nation. The Federal Government is not endowed with that right.

[Cutnstuf]

There are some totally misinformed and somewhat paranoid folks on this thread. And yes, I'm talking about about you radical righties. So I am backing away from this discussion as it has no end and no solution. Adios, muchachos!

[deerhound]

Freedom is a radical idea everywhere except a few Countries like the US. I worry when Americans claim freedom is radical.

[Cutnstuf]

Freedom is a radical idea everywhere except a few Countries like the US. I worry when Americans claim freedom is radical.

I never said freedom was radical, that's just what it sounds like in the "echo chamber" some of you folks live in. You ought to stop listening to Beck and Limbaugh for 5 minutes to clear your heads of their paranoid bs.

[woodworkerjunkie]

I have yet to ever hear Beck and have heard Limbaugh maybe 3 times. I don't follow any of those guys on the radio. Some of us actually use our own minds to make decisions, not spew the agenda that the corrupt news medias of this country are trying to brainwash everyone into believing. There is more than enough information on the net, to look at both sides with an open mind and come to your own conclusions. But, most people are biased in their opinions, and cannot look at information with an open mind. Both Republicans and Democrats have had good and bad ideas over the years (mostly bad for both sides). Just go back to the early 1900's and read through the history of our country and the Presidents we have had through the years, and make up your own mind about which party has the best intent for this country. Of course, if your of the opinion that socialism is a good thing, then you will fall on the Democratic side, and if you want less government and freedom you will side toward the Republicans. Though I don't really side with either one, to me they are both working against the Magna Carta, Our Bill of Rights and our Constitution. Even the US Supreme Court is showing their contempt of the US Constitution, when they start talking about basing their decision on European laws , they are not following the laws of our Constitution.

The Magna Carta

The Founding Fathers found the Magna Carta an inspiring source. In 1215, a group of English nobles, demanded certain rights and forced the King to sign the Magna Carta or the Great Charter. 500 hundred years later the American colonists were to use this example to demand their rights from the British King.

These rights included: The right of jury trial, protection of private property, limits on taxation, and some religious freedoms. These rights became a part of our Bill Of Rights and apply to all.

John Locke

No other individual influenced the author of the Declaration of Independence more than Unitarian John Locke (1632-1704). He was a British philosopher who rejected the idea that Kings had a divine right to rule. Instead, Locke argued that people are the source of power, not kings.

Locke argued that people are born with certain "natural" or "inalienable" rights. These include the right to "life, liberty and property." Government did not give people these rights; rather they are born with them and as such, no government can take them away.

According to Locke, people formed governments to protect their rights, which he called a "social contract." People agreed to obey the government and in return, government had the responsibility to protect peoples' natural rights.

Locke also argued that if the government failed to protect our natural rights, then the people had the right to replace the government. Thomas Jefferson, in writing the Declaration of Independence, drew heavily from the writings of John Locke.

Above: extracts from: CLASS NOTES- AMERICAN HISTORY by Levi Anthony January 30, 2004 and Wikipedia.

The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.
The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.


In a Republic, the sovereignty resides in the people themselves, whether one or many. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives as he chooses to solve a problem. Further, the people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government being hired by the people, is obliged to its owner, the people.

The people did "ordain and establish this Constitution," not for themselves, but "for the United States of America." In delegating powers to the government agencies the people gave up none of their own. (See Preamble of U.S. Constitution). This adoption of this concept is why the U.S. has been called the "Great Experiment in self government." The People govern themselves, while their agents (government agencies) perform tasks listed in the Preamble for the benefit of the People. The experiment is to answer the question, "Can self-governing people coexist and prevail over government agencies that have no authority over the People?"

The citizens of the United States are totally subject to the laws of the United States (See 14th Amendment of U.S. Constitution). NOTE: U.S. citizenship did not exist until July 28, 1868.

Actually, the United States is a mixture of the two systems of government (Republican under Common Law, and democratic under statutory law). The People enjoy their God-given natural rights in the Republic. In a democracy, the Citizens enjoy only government granted privileges (also known as civil rights).

There was a great political division between two major philosophers, Hobbes and Locke. Hobbes was on the side of government. He believed that sovereignty was vested in the state. Locke was on the side of the People. He believed that the fountain of sovereignty was the People of the state. Statists prefer Hobbes. Populists choose Locke. In California, the Government Code sides with Locke. Sections 11120 and 54950 both say, "The people of this State do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them." The preambles of the U.S. and California Constitutions also affirm the choice of Locke by the People.

Above: extracts from: http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

For more understanding of the difference between Democracy and Republic, that most try to claim is one and the same with minor differences read: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/Ameri ... emrep.html

After reading all of this, it is easy to see how our government has turned this country from a "Republic", into a democracy and is headed toward a dictatorship. Obama has stepped up the pace since he took office, thinking he doesn't have to have approval from the House and Senate to do as he wants. He believes he is above the law and can side step the Constitution.

[Julie]

People who assign 'rights' to themselves, then focus so much of their rhetoric on keeping them rather than on seeing that everyone benefits remind me of Marie Antoinette and her spectacular ignorance of everyone else's poverty, believing they all had access to cake. And people who continue to label those people socialists when they dare to strive just for parity (equality is idealistic, but not always realistic, though one should never stop trying) should begin calling the others fascists (maybe it's time)! The trouble with them is they are so paranoid, so focused on their rights - whichever ones you like - that they blunder over everyone else's rights to a decent life. What's so admirable about limiting taxation? The point of it is to give everyone (including those who through no fault of their own may not have fallen into gravy, no matter how hard or even smart they work) at least a semblance of civilized life, and if it takes a bit more at times to make that happen, well there are worse things than going without luxury for a while too - luxury too often achieved by stomping on others.