As Requested: SCREENSHOTS and Data

[cosmo]

A Zeo might help. It will tell you how your sleep stages are.

[Pugsy]

I don't yell.
I just don't comment anymore.

[archangle]

How long have you been on CPAP now?

[zoocrewphoto]

Thanks Pugsy! You're very helpful. You're not like some people on this forum who yell at me for not trying every one of their suggestions immediately

Your other thread said you were considering quitting, so it would seem like we had very little time to convince you to try other things before you quit. None of us have anything to gain whether you do well or not. We're just trying to help you. I do think you need to revise your goals. You are still expecting to feel great after one night.

Tell you what, starting tonight I'm gonna use straight CPAP mode, pressure of 9.
I'll let you know how I feel tomorrow. If I still feel exhausted, then I don't know what's left to change anymore.

You've already told yourself that if you don't feel better after one night on cpap, then you don't know what to change. You are expecting a huge change in one day.

Even without a CPAP my sleep can be fragmented (using the bathroom, being awoken by a noise, having a sore arm, etc

Fragmented sleep is a HUGE factor in how we feel. People without sleep apnea also feel lilke crap if they have a night of constant waking up. CPAP doesn't fix fragmented sleep. It tends to reduce bathroom trips, and it will reduce the tiny wakeups that we don't even remember. But it won't fix noises, pain, etc. I had a huge problem last month with leg pain last month. My machine is great, but my leg kept waking me up. I had to solve that problem so that I could go back to getting quality sleep.

You cannot expect CPAP to fix non-sleep apnea related sleep issues. There are LOTS of sleep issues, and you probably have more than one.

What if I choose a pressure of 8 and that doesn't help? then what? Go to 9? 10? 11?
Go back to APAP mode?

That is when you look at the data and see what happened. Make adjustments. If you had lots of events at that pressure, then you raise it and try again. There are lots of options, but you have to look at the data and make decisions based on them. You can always post them and get some great advice.

I made the analogy before: if you are prescribed a pill, and after taking the pill over and over you still don't feel better, why keep taking that
pill?

Yes. I actually take 3 medications for high blood pressure. I honestly do not feel the difference between high and low blood pressure. It makes no difference to me on a daily basis. I keep taking them because I know it makes a difference for me long term. Just like sleep apnea, high blood pressure causes a much higher risk of heart attack and stroke. Those really scare me. I will also tell you that I absolutely HATE one of my medications. Hydrocholorithiazide. It's nicknamed a water pill. Why? Because it works by making you pee a lot. Every day, I get to make frequent trips to the bathroom because the medication. I do not feel better. I hate the extra bathroom trips. But this is my life we are talking about. I will do what I need to do to keep my blood pressure down. I am praying that once I master consistency with the cpap machine, I might get off this medication. If I had to choice to keep the machine or the pill, and my blood pressure would be okay, I would keep the machine and ditch the pill.


You may not like the pill analogy anymore, but it fits perfectly. You see, sleep apnea doesn't just affect how you feel today. It damages your internal organs. You are younger, havn't had as many years of damage as many of us. I am 40, and I do have years of damage. My doctor has been warning me for over a year that I am at high risk of a stroke. When I had my vertigo attacks, two ER doctors ruled out stroke, which means they considered it. For the last 10 years or more, I have been just higher than normal blood pressure and then going higher. Before medication and cpap, it was in the 170s over 100-105. High end of normal is 130 over 85. Ten years ago, it was 140. I don't remember ANY readings in the actual normal range in the last 10 years. When I started taking medications, I got some occasional readings in the 130s. But I was usually still in the 150s. Better than without medication, but still not good. When I started doing cpap, I got normal readings. 120s usually. I even got a 107 over 63. That is because of cpap.

CPAP treatment isn't just about today or tomorrow. It is about 10 years from now, 20 years, etc.

Let me give you another example. I am also a severe night owl. It's called delayed sleep phase disorder. It means I sleep normally, but at a different time than what is considered normal. In years past, I have tried to be normal. For short periods (2-4 months), I have looked normal, slept 8 hours a night at a normal time (11pm to 7am). And I felt like crap. The sleep quality was not good. As soon as I was allowed to go back to my normal sleep schedule, I instantly felt better. I have found that 5 or 6 hours of sleep at my normal time feels better to me than 8 hours at the wrong time.

If I try to sleep too early, I just toss and turn. I don't sleep. I get irritated. And I still feel like crap, even if I am in bed for 8 hours or more. BAck when I was in college, I was only getting 4 hours of sleep per night, but I still couldn't fall asleep early. I had to get up at 5am, and yet I couldn't sleep before 1am. My dad was give me lectures about not going to bed early, but I just couldn't sleep early. I could sleep on the bus, both ways. I even learned to sleep standing up if there were no seats available. And I would crash on days without school or work, and especially without both. One day I came home at 1pm, felt cold, fell asleep watching tv in bed, woke up at 9pm, used the bathroom, went back to bed, and got up at 2pm the next day. Serious crash and burn.

These days, my normal sleep time is between 4 and 6am. I get up at 1:09pm for work. On days off, if I have nothing I need to do early, I will sleep until 3 or 4pm. I do have weekends where I go out of town. I have to get up early 2-3 days in a row. The first night, I usually get less than 3 hours of sleep as I usually need to get up at 6 or 7am, and I struggle to get to bed before 4am. So, I always plan an extra day off after the weekend so that I can catch up on sleep. It works well for me to have a scheduled crash and burn day. I did recently learn though that my headaches after those weekends were sleep apnea. For years, I assumed they were migraines as they can be known for being on weekends when people relax. Now that I have a cpap machine. I find that any full night without the machine results in a headache, and the longer the night, the worse the headache. Som those longer crash and burn nights were also causing more apnea events and thus more oxygen desaturations, and thus the nasty headache. I now have the power to get the etxra sleep AND skip the nasty headache. I could have skipped a lot of headaches and probably all the blood pressure medication if I hadn't been in denial about sleep apnea for 10 years.


What many people do not understand about DSPD is that there is more than the sleep time at play. We can change our sleep times, but that does not automatically change our other circadian rhythms. Our temperature goes up and down during the day and night. OUr digestive system. Hormones, etc. If we change one cycle and not the others, then we are actually fighting ourselves, and that makes us sick. This is easily recognized in people who are normal, but work night shift. It is less obvious in people who are night owls trying to be normal. I learned that it was better to accept it than to fight it. I have a work schedule that works with my sleep schedule. It took years to convince my friends and family that this was important for my health and non-negotiable. It made a huge difference in how I felt.


You may have some kind of sleep issue in addition to sleep apnea, and you won't be able to get rid of the sleep fragmentation until you understand what is causing it and how to fix it. It may be a challenge to discover what it is and find the best solution. But it will be worth it. There are lots of different sleep issues, so it is not uncommon to have more than one at the same time.

If you quit, it will come back to haunt you later. I do hope you have success and start to feel better. I also believe you will need to adjust more than the cpap as you have multiple sleep issues. I guarantee that you CAN solve this and eventually feel better. It may be harder for you than others. But you can do it. I can also guarantee that it will be easier if you go into it with a positive attitude and really try. Be open to suggestions. Don't try each new thing with reluctance and expectations of failure.

[Mozart22]

UPDATE: Last night I used straight CPAP mode, pressure of 9. I chose that pressure based on my 95%, and it was also
recommended to me on this forum.
Results: My AHI was 10.4 This is my highest AHI since starting xPAP therapy more than 2 weeks ago.
By comparison, the previous night my AHI was 3.2 when the pressure range was 6-10 cm
I was quite skeptical of switching to CPAP mode but after some of you strongly suggested it and criticized me for not
trying it, I decided to just go ahead and give it a try. Unfortunately it gave me my highest AHI reading since using this
machine. Sure it's just one night, but I've never had an AHI this high.

[Wulfman...]

UPDATE: Last night I used straight CPAP mode, pressure of 9. I chose that pressure based on my 95%, and it was also
recommended to me on this forum.
Results: My AHI was 10.4 This is my highest AHI since starting xPAP therapy more than 2 weeks ago.
By comparison, the previous night my AHI was 3.2 when the pressure range was 6-10 cm
I was quite skeptical of switching to CPAP mode but after some of you strongly suggested it and criticized me for not
trying it, I decided to just go ahead and give it a try. Unfortunately it gave me my highest AHI reading since using this
machine. Sure it's just one night, but I've never had an AHI this high.

Since you don't like making quick changes, give it a week at this pressure and post some reports from Encore so we can see what's happening. If, during your usage of a range of pressures, you weren't actually sleeping deeply, your AHI numbers during that time would not have been this high. In other words, the pressure changes WERE keeping you out of deep sleep which you desperately need. Now, you MAY be getting into some deep sleep and it's showing up in the AHI.

How do you feel this morning?

Den

.

[Mozart22]

I didn't have time to go on SH today. I just gave the AHI from the machine's LCD screen.
I know details matter, but in this particular case with such a high AHI, it's obvious the straight CPAP
mode didn't work. We're not talking a couple points increase in AHI, we're talking about 7 higher than
usual, the very same night when I went to straight CPAP mode. As usual, I'm exhausted.

Despite all this, I'm going to try straight CPAP mode for another night, just in case.
I would imagine my AHI will be high again if I do the same thing as last night.

[Guest]

I didn't have time to go on SH today. I just gave the AHI from the machine's LCD screen.
I know details matter, but in this particular case with such a high AHI, it's obvious the straight CPAP
mode didn't work. We're not talking a couple points increase in AHI, we're talking about 7 higher than
usual, the very same night when I went to straight CPAP mode. As usual, I'm exhausted.

Despite all this, I'm going to try straight CPAP mode for another night, just in case.
I would imagine my AHI will be high again if I do the same thing as last night.

That's a ridiculous statement to make.
The numbers from the LCD are virtually useless.

Den

.

[Mozart22]

When you give an AHI number could you please also give the event category breakdown for that AHI?
How much of the other 3 categories are making up that AHI?
The different event categories are very important when looking at the AHI.

I didn't have time to go on SH today. I just gave the AHI from the machine's LCD screen.
I know details matter, but in this particular case with such a high AHI, it's obvious the straight CPAP
mode didn't work. We're not talking a couple points increase in AHI, we're talking about 7 higher than
usual, the very same night when I went to straight CPAP mode. As usual, I'm exhausted.

Despite all this, I'm going to try straight CPAP mode for another night, just in case.
I would imagine my AHI will be high again if I do the same thing as last night.

That's a ridiculous statement to make.
The numbers from the LCD are virtually useless.

Den

.

If the machine's LCD says my AHI was 10.4 then I take it to be correct. If the number is wrong, that would be quite strange
since this is the very same machine that's supposed to provide treatment. Either way I still feel very tired today,
that above all else is what matters the most to me. The high AHI certainly does not help either

[Wulfman...]

GOOD GRIEF!!!
Re-read my post at the top of the page.
Let me try to explain it again.
If you weren't getting into deep sleep with a range of pressures you wouldn't be having nearly as many A/H events.......and if last night was representative, you may be getting into some deeper sleep and the A/H events are showing up. That may indicate you may eventually need a little more pressure, but for now you need to establish some type of baseline (at least with the pressure requirements).

Anyway.......keep at it.

Den

.

[ems]

Hi Mozart... I remember you from another forum - I think two other forums.

Anyway, you aren't going to get better advice about sleep apnea anywhere. The majority of people who responded to your posts are long time members here. Don't be so quick to take offense. They genuinely want to help. No sleep specialist will be willing to put forth as much effort as these folks.

Sleep apnea/using the machine is a journey and takes a lot of patience... many adjustments and starts and restarts in the never ending search for restorative sleep.

I wish you the best.

[SleepingUgly]

Interestingly I am no longer getting emails notifying me of new posts to this thread, which I think is a sign of something. You're in good hands. Good luck.

[DoriC]

Interestingly I am no longer getting emails notifying me of new posts to this thread, which I think is a sign of something. You're in good hands. Good luck.

Hmm, same here! Check my new thread!!

[ems]

Interestingly I am no longer getting emails notifying me of new posts to this thread, which I think is a sign of something. You're in good hands. Good luck.

That happens to me often with many threads. Sometimes I'll get an email and sometimes I don't. Started happening several months ago. I figured it was a system bug or something.