Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spiky Graphs!)

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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NightMonkey
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by NightMonkey » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:16 am

jbn3boys wrote: I consistently run LOWER than the intended leak rate on my PR S1 machine. For example, my intended leak rate for my mask at my pressure is 37-40. My nightly average leaks over the last month have been 30-36.
boys, Your equipment profile shows you are using a BIPAP. ResMed has published a pressure-flow curve ( http://www.resmed.com/int/assets/docume ... ow_eng.pdf ) for the Swift FX which shows vent flow rates for straight CPAP pressures. How do you know the vent flow rate with this mask when using a BIPAP?
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jbn3boys
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by jbn3boys » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:23 am

BusyLyn wrote:But is it good for you to consistently run LOWER than the intended leak rate? I thought that you needed the intended leak to clear out the CO2 that you are breathing out...

Lyn
I'm not sure if I've ever reached the intended leak rate. And I really don't think that I am ever blocking the vents. I just assumed it was normal. Anybody else with a PR S1 want to comment?

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HoseCrusher
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by HoseCrusher » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:01 pm

If the mask leak rate is (figuring on the low side) 20 liters per minute, and if you exhale 1 liter of air (figuring on the high side) with each breath and breathe 15 times a minute while sleeping (figuring on the high side), you would still have a reserve of 5 liters a minute to prevent re-breathing your exhaled air.

I think mask leak rates are closer to 30 liters per minute at the pressures commonly used, that exhale volume is closer to half a liter with each breath, and the rate of breathing is closer to 10 - 12 breaths per minute while asleep.

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jbn3boys
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by jbn3boys » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:15 pm

HoseCrusher wrote:If the mask leak rate is (figuring on the low side) 20 liters per minute, and if you exhale 1 liter of air (figuring on the high side) with each breath and breathe 15 times a minute while sleeping (figuring on the high side), you would still have a reserve of 5 liters a minute to prevent re-breathing your exhaled air.

I think mask leak rates are closer to 30 liters per minute at the pressures commonly used, that exhale volume is closer to half a liter with each breath, and the rate of breathing is closer to 10 - 12 breaths per minute while asleep.
Sleep-deprived brain here today....
so that means that a leak rate LOWER then the intended leak rate is just fine. Correct?
And that a leak rate considerably higher can be a problem. Correct?

And for daddy's sake...any graph that is spikey is probably not good. Correct?

(I'm tellin' ya...I have very few brain cells today....and my AHI from last night proves it!)

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Mask: Swift™ FX For Her Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: titration 11
Sleep study (Aug 2010): AHI 16 (On mask AHI 0.2) <-- Now, if I could just attain that "0.2" again!
aPAP for 4 months, Switched to BiPap, 2nd sleep study Feb 2011 Possible PLMD
to quote Madalot..."I'm an enigma"

HoseCrusher
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by HoseCrusher » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:37 pm

It appears that your brain cells are working much better than you think.

I will keep it short.

Correct.
Correct.
Correct.


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roster
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by roster » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:43 pm

jbn3boys wrote:
HoseCrusher wrote:If the mask leak rate is (figuring on the low side) 20 liters per minute, and if you exhale 1 liter of air (figuring on the high side) with each breath and breathe 15 times a minute while sleeping (figuring on the high side), you would still have a reserve of 5 liters a minute to prevent re-breathing your exhaled air.

I think mask leak rates are closer to 30 liters per minute at the pressures commonly used, that exhale volume is closer to half a liter with each breath, and the rate of breathing is closer to 10 - 12 breaths per minute while asleep.
Sleep-deprived brain here today....
so that means that a leak rate LOWER then the intended leak rate is just fine. Correct?
And that a leak rate considerably higher can be a problem. Correct?

And for daddy's sake...any graph that is spikey is probably not good. Correct?

(I'm tellin' ya...I have very few brain cells today....and my AHI from last night proves it!)

What are your pressure settings?
Rooster
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by roster » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:44 pm

DadscreepyCPAPmask,

Do you awaken anytime during the night or morning with dry mouth? Do you frequently have dry mouth during the day?
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by DadscreepyCPAPmask » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:55 pm

roster wrote:DadscreepyCPAPmask,

Do you awaken anytime during the night or morning with dry mouth? Do you frequently have dry mouth during the day?
Yes, I awaken at night sometimes with a dry mouth. It does not bother me to much though. I have no doubt that the spiky graphs are due to a bit of mouth breathing so I may try a chin strap (any recommendations?). I received the Activa LT combo pack from Sleep Nation TV today, so I will try that one out for the next week. I will probably start with the soft gel cushion first .

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by DadscreepyCPAPmask » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:58 pm

bdp522 wrote: The question is, does the leaking wake you or disrupt your sleep? If it does, you need to fix it.
With my Swift FX it occasionally will because I was getting "large leaks" with the Micro, I never get any "large leaks". I truely think that I mouth breath more with the nasal pillows more than the nasal mask. Could that be possible?

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roster
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by roster » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:09 pm

It is good that you will work on mouthbreathing because it can really wreck your therapy when you are using a nasal interface.

But don't be afraid of full face masks. I use two different ones and they are comfortable and leak free. Plus if I have a congestion from a cold I'm all set to breathe through my mouth and sleep well. And you know breathing well and sleeping well are more important when you are ill.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by DadscreepyCPAPmask » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:29 pm

I just checked my data from last night and with the Micro nasal mask I showed a "large leak" (9 minutes) and a spiky graph. Average total leak rate of 41%!
Is it possible that I have gotten very acustom to my titrated pressure setting after 2 months with CPAP, and maybe I need to slightly increase my pressure now? I read somewhere on this forum that sometimes mouth breathing can occur if your pressure is to low (keeping airway open)?

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WontGiveUp
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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by WontGiveUp » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:40 pm

Can you post your charts again? It would make it easier to comment.

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by DadscreepyCPAPmask » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:48 pm

This was this mornings data

Image

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by WontGiveUp » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:26 pm

From your data it really looks like a mask leak issues, which in my personal experience are caused by either mask fit, mask stability which comes from improperly adjusted headgear or even your hair length/composition (fine, oily, etc.) or hose your hose tugging on your mask when you move around. If you haven't tried a different size cushion you might try that first, as far as moving around goes that might require a different pillow and hose tugging can be a tough one, I tried many things and finally ended up making a custom headboard that makes my hose glide around and never tug on my face in conjunction with a hose strap on my head gear. Hope something here helps. Good luck.

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Re: Total Average Leak Rate on PR System One (Spikey Graphs!

Post by robysue » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:31 pm

DadscreepyCPAPmask wrote:I just checked my data from last night and with the Micro nasal mask I showed a "large leak" (9 minutes) and a spiky graph. Average total leak rate of 41%!
NO! You have the UNITS on the number wrong again. Sorry to fuss about this---but UNITS are important here.

The meaning of the number you cite is the average leak rate is 40.5 L/min. There is NO "average total leak rate" reported as a percent.

The graph you posted also shows that the 10.5 minutes spent in "LARGE LEAKS" makes up a total of 2.8% of the "night"---i.e. the total time the S1 was running from noon to noon on the "day" in question.

NOTE: Try as I might, I have yet to determine HOW the S1 decides when a leak is worthy of being labeled as a LARGE LEAK. I've read the documentation and gained absolutely no insight into the S1's algorithm for determining when to flag a leak as a LARGE LEAK. I've posted here and not gained any insight---just fellow posters admitting they too have no real knowledge of how the S1 determines a LARGE LEAK. But clearly, LARGE LEAKS are significant---if only because they're pretty hard to actually trigger. Me, I've never actually seen a LARGE LEAK in my S1 data even though I've seen several leaks that would definitely have been above the Red Line in ResScan---the rationale of whichis documented in the ResMed clinician's material at least.

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