Cpap v's Buteyko

[geager70]

In October last year I was diagnosed with "medium" sleep Apnea and duly went about purchasing a Cpap machine. Went through all the usual "getting to know you" problems but within a few days I was using it for 6-7 hours per night with only one wake up usually around 3 am. I was told by the sleep clinic that the Cpap is the only known method to prevent sleep Apnea. As we were embarking on a European holiday in May for six weeks the thought of carrying the Cpap, daily cleaning, ensuring the humidifier water source was ok and setting up for foreign electrical plugs etc almost put me off the whole trip. Along came Buteyko, I attended a local course for four days, within two days I did not need the Cpap and it has been in the closet since 2 Feburary this year. Basic principal of the method is to ensure you breath through your nose as mouth breathing hyperventiates you and reduces the balance of Co2. I sleep with tape over my mouth ! Put Buteyko in Google and you will find more about it, it may not work for everyone but it worked for me.
I now am now looking forward to my trip as I only need to take a roll of tape.!!

[Goofproof]

Very Good idea, I'll put mine in the closet, and also plan on swimming De-Nile. NOT! Jim

[DreamDiver]

Buteyko is an asthma relief treatment - not a cure for Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA). This poster is like those who post occasionally about how $50 boil-and-bite dental device cured their sleep apnea. These devices might help with snoring, but they do not cure sleep apnea either. For those who are new forum members, please keep in mind that non-members often post stuff like this and then disappear - but rarely become actual members because all they really want you to do is buy their product. They don't care that it doesn't actually work. Two months from now, they'll realize they're sleep-deficient and go back on CPAP.

Again - asthma is not OSA. Snoring is not OSA. Both can exist without OSA. Buteyko is for asthma - not OSA.

[tonycog]

If your air-way is blocked (the definition of obstructive sleep apnea), it does not matter whether you breath through your mouth or nose. The air will not get to your lungs.

[Raj]

This issue, like so many others, is far more complex than it may seem. My take on the Buteyko breathing method is that there is something to it, and it may even help somewhat with centrals and possibly even with OA although you won't find me putting away my xpap gear any time in the foreseeable future. I'll explain. Here is what is actually known (as apart from theorized): if blood contains too little CO2, blood pH fails to drop far enough to separate O2 in blood from hemoglobin, resulting in some degree of cellular oxygen starvation depending on the severity of CO2 shortage. This principle was discovered in 1904 by the Danish physiologist Christian Bohr.

Now we enter the murky waters of theory. Buteyko posited that most people habitually breathe a bit too heavily, a mild form of constant hyperventilation, resulting in a constant shortage of CO2. It's not hard to understand how this might have happened. Not long ago (by geological standards), human beings were a whole lot more active than we are today, and had far more need to be prepared for danger. Since physical activity burns oxygen, rapid breathing was appropriate for balancing blood chemistry. These days, the old fight-or-flight response is still with us, but we call it "stress," and mere anxiety simply doesn't burn O2 the way running from a tiger would. Buteyko believed that our over-breathing continues during sleep and results in a host of oxygen-shortage symptoms and damage including hypertension, exhaustion, and apnea, which he felt resulted from the body trying to regain a balance of gasses. His method involves practicing breathing less for periods of time to change breathing habits.

I suspect that most people who discover a basic principle such as this tend to explain everything by means of the principle, leading to oversimplification. But his ideas do seem to have some practical applications. If Buteyko was right (and his ideas have only been adequately tested with respect to asthma, where they've proved themselves), it isn't hard to imagine why his practices could lead to improvement with central apneas. But what about obstructive apnea? Initially, I utterly discounted the notion, but after thinking about it, it seems possible that gentler breathing while asleep might diminish some tissue-collapsing effects. I'd like to see this tested.

In any case (and here's where I'm going to upset Buteyko teachers), I've been experimenting with Buteyko techniques lately all on my own. As a long-time practitioner of pranayama, I see no need for formal training since the principles are so very simple. Nowhere in my breathing practices have I tried to feel a bit starved for air, so this is quite different than all my previous practices, but I have to admit that I've been feeling better and my AHI has gone down. Monitoring my oxygen levels with an SPO2 monitor while I deliberately under-breathe has been quite strange. While engaged in this style of breathing, I feel a bit starved for air yet can watch my O2 levels actually rise. I'll continue practicing and see what comes of this over time.

[geager]

It also works for OSA - There is NO device - just a method of breathing. I am NOT selling anything - just relating my experience that may help others.

Buteyko is an asthma relief treatment - not a cure for Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA). This poster is like those who post occasionally about how $50 boil-and-bite dental device cured their sleep apnea. These devices might help with snoring, but they do not cure sleep apnea either. For those who are new forum members, please keep in mind that non-members often post stuff like this and then disappear - but rarely become actual members because all they really want you to do is buy their product. They don't care that it doesn't actually work. Two months from now, they'll realize they're sleep-deficient and go back on CPAP.

Again - asthma is not OSA. Snoring is not OSA. Both can exist without OSA. Buteyko is for asthma - not OSA.

[geager]

I believe the increased volume of co2 absorbed by the blood prevents the soft tissue from relaxing and keeps the airway open. Mouth breathing causes hyperventilation and too much co2 is expelled starving the blood and brain of co2. Breathing through your nose warms and puts moisture in the air (hence the warm humidifier on Cpap machines) plus the benefit of the filtering out the "nasties" by your nose hair. Sorry, I am not a Doctor nor a Buteko instructor if you want to check this out "google" it.

If your air-way is blocked (the definition of obstructive sleep apnea), it does not matter whether you breath through your mouth or nose. The air will not get to your lungs.

[DreamDiver]

It also works for OSA - There is NO device - just a method of breathing. I am NOT selling anything - just relating my experience that may help others.

It's ironic that your original post was on April Fool's day, eh?

Like Raj, I have read pretty extensively about buteyko. I too have practiced many different forms of meditation. There is no way to meditate yourself out of a physical inevitability. It's like saying 'I used pranayama to restore my eyesight from 200/20 to 20/20.' In the case of OSA, you may be able to fool your body for a few days, a few weeks, whatever. But if you truly do have OSA, you're more likely experiencing a temporary placebo effect. Sooner or later, the effects of accrued sleep deprivation will catch up with you. You say you've been doing this for a few days. If you're not sleeping with the machine on, please consider wearing a recording oximeter. If you see swings in your O2, you'll have a better handle on what the overall effects of your buteyko exercises have been on your sleep architecture.

There may be some with mild sleep apnea - as Raj suggests - mostly central, for whom this might work. For those with the equivalent of '20/200' (legally blind) vision - profound OSA, this is a fantasy. There is more likelihood in reducing OSA by going from obese to normal weight, or having septoplasty or turbinate reduction, where medically appropriate.

[Muffy]

Here is what is actually known (as apart from theorized): if blood contains too little CO2, blood pH fails to drop far enough to separate O2 in blood from hemoglobin, resulting in some degree of cellular oxygen starvation depending on the severity of CO2 shortage. This principle was discovered in 1904 by the Danish physiologist Christian Bohr.

In chronic hyperventilation (chronic respiratory alkalosis), the kidneys excrete -HCO3 in order to correct pH. Compensation starts at about 6 hours and completes in 2 to 4 days, dependent upon a number of factors, but pH normalizes.

With this compensation (and for that matter, even without it), the effect on the oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve is negligible:



In this example, pCO2 of 30 mmHg is utilized, which would represent substantial hyperventilation, and as you can see, at pO2 80 mmHg the difference is indiscernible.

Muffy

[DreamDiver]

In chronic hyperventilation (chronic respiratory alkalosis), the kidneys excrete -HCO3 in order to correct pH. Compensation starts at about 6 hours and completes in 2 to 4 days, dependent upon a number of factors, but pH normalizes.

With this compensation (and for that matter, even without it), the effect on the oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve is negligible:

[image]

In this example, pCO2 of 30 mmHg is utilized, which would represent substantial hyperventilation, and as you can see, at pO2 80 mmHg the difference is indiscernible.

Muffy

Muffy,

The data are clear. Unfortunately, I don't understand a word that you just said. Could you put it into plain English for the rest of us? In other words, rather than allow us to draw our own conclusions from what you said, what are you implying about the usefulness - or not - of buteyko for OSA?

[LSAT]

Does this mean that if an OSA sufferer took a sleep study with their mouth taped the results would show a minimal AHI and 90+ Oxygen levels ??? Hmmmmmm

[BlackSpinner]

It also works for OSA - There is NO device - just a method of breathing. I am NOT selling anything - just relating my experience that may help others.

Yes well OSA is not about not breathing but about not being able to breathe due to the "OBSTRUCTIVE" part when your airway collapses. It doesn't mater if you breathe through your nose or not, if the air can't get any further. When I tried chin straps and closed mouth while waiting for my cpap I got worse.

When you're asleep it makes not one wit of difference what you practiced when awake, your autonomic nervous system takes over.

[Raj]

Muffy, I'm not sure the Buteyko people would find your graph convincing. The problem is that you adjusted it for a normal pH, which turns the data you presented into a bit of circular reasoning. While it may be true that the pH of someone who consistently and heavily hyperventilates corrects itself after a few days (and I believe it because the body has all sorts of ways to re-balance), I doubt the Buteyko people would suggest that extreme and consistent hyperventilation is the norm. I think what they're attempting to address is far more subtle and, to add an extra confound, inconsistent. Of course, it's always possible that their breathing method is indeed helpful, but for some reason beyond CO2 blood levels -- that's one problem with conflating correlation with causation -- but too little research on their claims has been done so far.

[JockLitt]

Being involved in the bulding industry, I know quite a few people who would get on a lot better in life with their mouth taped

[Janknitz]

I attended a local course for four days, within two days I did not need the Cpap and it has been in the closet since 2 Feburary this year

And was this confirmed with a sleep study