I expected a miracle!

Luthie2006 wrote:Why didn't I think of that "clock watching" first before you guys came up with that? That is why I love all of you for your support!
I think you are 100% right that I am worried that I won't wake up in the time for work! I have to get up at 5:30 am every morning M-F for work and am worried that I will oversleep.
However, on Sunday's I don't sleep all that much better when I am not pressured to wake up! I think my brain is used to getting up so much and looking over at the clock to see how many more hours I have left to sleep, etc. Like this morning, I got up at 3:30 am, and I was calculating that "Ok, Luthie, you have 2 more hours to sleep, so you are good to sleep." When I wake up and it is 4:30 am, I say to myself, "Luthie, you only have 1 more hour to go, so don't get too used to this thing called "sleep" because you will have to get up too soon anyways. I do think this way. And I think turning the clock around (with my alarm on) will help. I believe I was told that before by my sleep clinician, but forgot about this, worrying so much about the CPAP masks. I think Robysue and Cowboy Casey hit the nail on the head at least with this clock situation. I will try turning it around and not look at it. I even check it 2 times every night to make sure it's set correctly. So I will try turning the clock around every night and see if this helps! Thanks on that.

Now I am more concerned about weaning off the Cymbalta. I have heard horror stories about this too. I am on 30 mg every other day, (dropping from 60 mg) and starting next week, Aug 13th, then every 3 days only for 2 weeks (so about 1-2 times a week) for 2 weeks and then OFF. If anyone has any more suggestions regarding this, please let me know. My Primary suggested this withdrawal method. I feel ok so far, no withdrawal side effects. So when I go lower, I will become sick?

Hi Luthie,

Sorry if I contributed to your concerns about cymbalta withdrawal. Obviously, none of us have a crystal ball regarding what will happen with your withdrawal.

But here is the reason for my concerns about the current tapering plan. As I mentioned yesterday, that RN I know said that an every other day tapering is a horrible tapering plan and puts the body into withdrawal as it needs a consistent dose every day.

Additionally, due to Cymbalta having one of the shortest half lives of all psych meds, you would probably feel the withdrawal symptoms more intently than you would if you were taking Prozac, which has a longer half life. I know I am not totally explaining this but if you want more information, google psych meds and half lives.

Another issue with psych med tapering is that too fast of a taper for many people is like hitting the brakes at 60 miles per hour. It is important to give your body a chance to adjust to the lower dose as this isn't the equivalent of stopping aspirin.

Remember, when anyone starts a psych meds, it doesn't work right away. Well, the same principal applies when tapering which sadly, many physicians seem to have forgotten.

Having said that, I did want to acknowledge that there are people who essentially cold turkey a med and do great. You could be one of them.

The problem is if you are't and many times, you won't know right away until it is too late, you could be hurting big time. That is why on the surviving antidepressants withdrawal board, a slow taper is advised.

If I were tapering off of the med under your circumstances, I would look into having the doses made at a compound pharmacy that would enable you to taper more slowly since unfortunately, the current dosing regimen of cymbalta doesn't allow you to obtain necessary tapering doses as your regular pharmacy.

The downside is insurance companies don't always cover these costs which can lead to great expense. But it is definitely worth looking into.

If compound pharmacies don't work for you, I would take another look at the thread I provided a link to and see if you can make tapering work with the beads method. To be honest, it looks like a royal pain in the neck but perhaps if you could hook up with someone who has done it, it might not be so bad.

Sorry, I don't have an easy answer but I hope at least this helps in some way.

49er

I was on cymbalta for Arthritis pain. It is one of the worst drugs out there. Getting off was hellish. I hope you won't have severe issues. If you think I am over stating it check out the link below from the FDA and Google "cymbalta withdrawal. "

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Advisor.../UCM172866.pdf

Getting off this poison should be step one. Also, as others have said don't clock watch, I used to do this and it is a bad habit. Move your clock so you can't see it from bed.

Good luck!

Luthie2006 wrote:Why didn't I think of that "clock watching" first before you guys came up with that? That is why I love all of you for your support!
I think you are 100% right that I am worried that I won't wake up in the time for work! I have to get up at 5:30 am every morning M-F for work and am worried that I will oversleep.
However, on Sunday's I don't sleep all that much better when I am not pressured to wake up!

As awful as it sounds: Your body and brain will learn to sleep more soundly if you just get up at 5:30 even on your days off. A consistent wake up time can be crucial in getting the body to sleep much more soundly. A consistent wake up time also encourages the mind and body to start getting sleepy close to your desired bedtime. And getting sleepy is not the same as being exhausted.

I think my brain is used to getting up so much and looking over at the clock to see how many more hours I have left to sleep, etc. Like this morning, I got up at 3:30 am, and I was calculating that "Ok, Luthie, you have 2 more hours to sleep, so you are good to sleep." When I wake up and it is 4:30 am, I say to myself, "Luthie, you only have 1 more hour to go, so don't get too used to this thing called "sleep" because you will have to get up too soon anyways. I do think this way.

And this kind of thinking is literally forcing your body to constantly wake up and check the clock all the time. As in: Every time you slightly wake up (to turn over or because it's a normal post REM wake), your thinking is forcing you to wake up fully to check the time and do the calculation and make the (conscious) decision about whether to give yourself permission to really fall asleep or to only give yourself permission to doze lightly.

And out of curiosity: Have you ever seriously overslept before? And if so, how big of a problem is oversleeping? Does it happen once in a blue moon? Does it happen at least once or twice a month? Does it happen once a twice a week?

In other words, how grounded in reality is your fear of oversleeping? It's one thing to worry about oversleeping if you are regularly ignoring the alarm clock when it goes off and oversleeping is a real, significant issue. But it's silly to worry about oversleeping if you don't have a much of a history of actually doing it.

robysue,

I really hate to disagree with you but as an FYI, psych meds like cymbalta can affect sleep big time making it every difficult to follow any type of sleep hygiene program. It certainly is worth a shot for Luthie but if she finds it is difficult to follow the rules, the effect of the Cymbalta might be an issue.

By the way, I know one person who got off of benzos by falling asleep in front of the TV. It was the only way this person could get to sleep even though the sleep hygience experts claims this would be a disaster. The sleep did eventually normalize without needing to use the TV.

Regarding having fears that may seem irrational, personally, I have found that accepting them makes them disappear alot more quickly instead of passing judgment on them. One day, I noticed them coming up and simply by saying, "yup, your fears are understandable," I immediately felt better.

Anyway, just wanted to share my perspective.

49er

robysue wrote:

Luthie2006 wrote:Why didn't I think of that "clock watching" first before you guys came up with that? That is why I love all of you for your support!
I think you are 100% right that I am worried that I won't wake up in the time for work! I have to get up at 5:30 am every morning M-F for work and am worried that I will oversleep.
However, on Sunday's I don't sleep all that much better when I am not pressured to wake up!

As awful as it sounds: Your body and brain will learn to sleep more soundly if you just get up at 5:30 even on your days off. A consistent wake up time can be crucial in getting the body to sleep much more soundly. A consistent wake up time also encourages the mind and body to start getting sleepy close to your desired bedtime. And getting sleepy is not the same as being exhausted.

I think my brain is used to getting up so much and looking over at the clock to see how many more hours I have left to sleep, etc. Like this morning, I got up at 3:30 am, and I was calculating that "Ok, Luthie, you have 2 more hours to sleep, so you are good to sleep." When I wake up and it is 4:30 am, I say to myself, "Luthie, you only have 1 more hour to go, so don't get too used to this thing called "sleep" because you will have to get up too soon anyways. I do think this way.

And this kind of thinking is literally forcing your body to constantly wake up and check the clock all the time. As in: Every time you slightly wake up (to turn over or because it's a normal post REM wake), your thinking is forcing you to wake up fully to check the time and do the calculation and make the (conscious) decision about whether to give yourself permission to really fall asleep or to only give yourself permission to doze lightly.

And out of curiosity: Have you ever seriously overslept before? And if so, how big of a problem is oversleeping? Does it happen once in a blue moon? Does it happen at least once or twice a month? Does it happen once a twice a week?

In other words, how grounded in reality is your fear of oversleeping? It's one thing to worry about oversleeping if you are regularly ignoring the alarm clock when it goes off and oversleeping is a real, significant issue. But it's silly to worry about oversleeping if you don't have a much of a history of actually doing it.

I'm chiming in again, this time on the clock watching aspect, because I have a possible solution to that. I used to be a night-time clock watcher because I could never get to sleep, and it caused some of the frustration you are having. I have been partially deaf since the age of 4. When I am up I can hear well with hearing aids, but at night I don't wear the aids, thus I've always had to spend lots of time finding alarm clocks that will wake me, then being afraid that it won't wake me. This is what started the clock-watching habit. Now I don't have a bedside clock at night so I can't glance at the clock during the night. Read on....

Ten years ago I latched onto vibrating alarm clocks. I started with a bedside clock that had a vibrating pad to put under the mattress or the mattress pad. Those don't work as well in the long run because the vibrator wears out long before the clock does, and it's hard to find a replacement pad that works with the clock. Then I discovered smaller clocks that have self-contained vibration along with buzzer, you can choose one or the other, some can be set to use both. Now I have a teeny tiny alarm clock (think half-inch thick credit card) that goes in my pillowcase every night. It has a snooze button, but by the time I pick up the pillow to dump the clock out, I'm awake and I don't need it. If I look at a clock at all during the night, it's when I get up to the bathroom, and I glance at the microwave when I walk past it. I found this clock by googling "vibrating alarm clock" and it gave me lots of choices.. Amazon, eBay, and other sites will have them.

49er wrote:robysue,

I really hate to disagree with you but as an FYI, psych meds like cymbalta can affect sleep big time making it every difficult to follow any type of sleep hygiene program. It certainly is worth a shot for Luthie but if she finds it is difficult to follow the rules, the effect of the Cymbalta might be an issue.

I don't discount the fact that tapering the cymbalta makes everything much more complicated. But Luthie is talking about a sleep pattern that predates both starting the Cymbalta and CPAP. She has written:

Luthie2006 wrote:Unfortunately I had the "awakenings all night every night" way before the Cymbalta for back pain and the CPAP machine.

So there's likely a pattern of bad sleep hygiene that makes the insomnia worse. And both the bad sleep hygiene and the insomnia have been around longer than any Cymbalta-related sleep issues. In other words, once she's through tapering the Cymbalta and off of that drug, her sleep problems are likely to remain because their roots predate the Cymbalta. And until the root causes of the insomnia are dealt with, the sleep is not likely to improve.

49er wrote:By the way, I know one person who got off of benzos by falling asleep in front of the TV. It was the only way this person could get to sleep even though the sleep hygience experts claims this would be a disaster. The sleep did eventually normalize without needing to use the TV.

Again, I'm not discounting that the Cymbalta tapering might be an issue. But the person you are speaking about probably did not have significant TV-related sleep problems before starting the benzos or before starting the benzo taper. Hence the temporary use of the technique of using the TV to fall asleep got the person over a significant hump. And his/her sleep was able to normalize after the withdrawal from benzos was completed because the temporary sleep problems were primarily caused by the benzos and/or the tapering off the benzos.

But if a person has had a long established habit of falling asleep in front of the TV that lead to sleep disruption prior to his/her starting benzos, and that habit and the resulting bad sleep continued while taking the benzos and continued while the person was working on the benzo taper, then his/her sleep most likely would NOT normalize within a few weeks of finishing the benzo taper: At the end of the taper, the person's sleep habits would likely revert to the pre-benzo troubled sleep pattern.

And in my opinion: Luthie's sleep was broken before she started the Cymbalta and it will remain broken after she finishes the taper unless she makes an effort to fix some habits (clock watching and trying to sleep in on days off in particular) that do seem to interfere significantly with her ability to get and stay asleep on most nights.

Does paying attention to sleep hygiene work for everybody? No. But do parts of "good sleep hygiene" work significantly for some people? Yes. And Luthie will not know whether or not clock watching and sleeping in on weekends are making it harder to stay asleep on most nights until and unless she tries getting up at the same time seven days a week for a while and learns to not watch the clock all night.

Regarding having fears that may seem irrational, personally, I have found that accepting them makes them disappear alot more quickly instead of passing judgment on them. One day, I noticed them coming up and simply by saying, "yup, your fears are understandable," I immediately felt better.

Part of accepting an irrational fear is understanding the fear is irrational and accurately assessing whether or not it is adversely affecting your day-to-day life.

I have a severe fear of live chickens with classic phobic reactions when I see a real live chiken. I even know the root cause of this fear---I was attacked by a large rooster when I was 2 and my family was visiting relatives who lived on a farm. So in one sense this fear is not unjustified. And I accept that fact and I don't even think about my fear of chickens for months at a time. But it is still there and it does border on the irrational. However, my intense fear of chickens doesn't affect my daily life at all. After all, in my day to day life I never have to face a live chicken. But this fear does raise its head occasionally: I hide my head under a handy afghan whenever I see a live chicken on a TV show and I won't come out until hubby assures me the chicken has gone away. When this happens, it provides a good laugh for both me and my husband after the chicken is no longer on the TV screen.

But if I had the same kind of phobic reaction to dogs stemming from an early childhood negative encounter with a dog, it would seriously affect my day to day life because it would limit my ability to take my hour long daily walks and it would seriously affect my enjoyment of those walks. And I would need to do something more proactive to deal with the fear rather than simply accepting it. In other words, if a fear is adversely affecting the quality of your life, you need to deal with it rather than allowing the fear to control you.

In Luthie's case: The fear of oversleeping is leading to a behavior pattern of constantly waking up, looking at the clock, and consciously making a decision about whether it is "ok" or not to try to fall into a deep sleep or simply doze. And this clock watching pattern is likely perpetuating the number of middle of night wakes. In other words, the fear of oversleeping is adversely affecting the quality of her sleep.

Now, if Luthie has a history of oversleeping, her fear of oversleeping is NOT unreasonable. In this case Luthie needs to figure out a way of reliably preventing the oversleeping that does NOT involve waking up every hour or two just to check the clock and make a decision about how much to allow or permit her body and brain to fall back into a deep sleep rather than just doze for the next hour or two. In other words, in this case, Luthie needs to address the fear of oversleeping by fixing the root cause: Fix the tendency to oversleep, and the fear of oversleeping should diminish, and as the fear of oversleeping starts to ebb, some of those unwelcome "clock watching" wakes should disappear.

But if Luthie has never overslept, the fear of oversleeping is NOT particularly reasonable, but her fear of oversleeping is adversely affecting the quality of her sleep nonetheless. And in this case, figuring out a way of getting over the fear of something that is not likely to happen is critically important in fixing the problem of multiple wakes accompanied by clock looking and calculating how much sleep time is left.

And that's why I asked: How big of a problem is oversleeping? Until we know how often Luthie actually oversleeps, we don't have a clue as to what a potentially useful way of addressing that fear is.

I want to thank all of your for your input. There is nothing that I read that I will not use! So thanks to all of you! Since I am at work and don't remember who wrote what, I will comment in general to Library Lady, 49'er, Sleep Disturbed and Robysue: I know there are others too. Thank you kindly!

I have printed everything on the Cymbalta withdrawal documents and will take them home to read them. Apparently my Primary does not know the correct way to wean down. I believe all you over him. When I was there (in person) and told him I wanted to wean off the Cymbalta (for back pain) (since I am on Celebrex too and we think the Cymbalta has caused my 20 pound weight gain over 8 months time). This Primary doctor of mine did not even know that the Cymbalta was in CAPSULE FORM. He asked me to break them in half and then I told him that "Doc, they are capsules, stupid." His Eli Lilly rep gave him the samples, so he never apparently took them himself or needed to or even looked at the pill. I am, though, very surprised that none of his patients are complaining of horrible withdrawals from this, although I read countless information regarding patients on all kinds of websites on all the issues that they are having on withdrawing it. I just don't have the patience for counting out beads of medication or even weighing them. I wrote him an email this morning, that I want him to write me a script for 20 mg as well, and instead of getting off of it at 30 mg, I will get off of it at 20 mg somehow. I am pretty scared about weaning off this now since I have an array of other issues too, one of them being sleep apnea and insommnia.

As far as "clocks" are concerned, I don't take offense at anyone and am so glad that people wrote me on here about this, because this may solve or help solve my issue with waking up every hour or two with my CPAP mask on. It is an "unfounded" fear. I only overslept one time in 6 years time when having to get up for work. My job is very strict (work at a hospital) and if I don't get here on time, especially when the weather is horrible in the winter and then I have to get up even earlier yet, we get docked, so I guess I am always concerned about getting to work on time; not that I sleep deeply because I don't at all. I am a light sleeper. I hear everything. However, one time (like the member who is scared of live chickens) I set the alarm clock and it just didn't go off at all. I had it set at P.M. instead of A.M. and slept an hour over. So I will turn my clock around from now on. Now it's the Cymbalta withdrawal I am more concerned about. To the writer (I think 49er) is it mandatory to count beads of medication, or can I just wean now from 30 mg to 20 mg and then off? Thank you so kindly. Luthie

Hi Luthie,

It is not an issue of what is mandatory regarding tapering Cymbalta. Personally, if I had been required to count beads during my tapering of psych meds, I would have found it very tough to do. As a result, I definitely understand your reluctance as it looks like it is royal pain in the -------.

But then the other side of the coin is the risk of severe withdrawal issues which may or may not happen to you. Again, if I were in your situation, I would see if filling the prescribing at a compound pharmacy was an option since you can obtain the doses you can't at your local drug store.

Start by doing a google search of ones in your area and then ask them how much they would charge with your insurance plan. Several years ago, when I did this with Wellbutrin XL, the one I used charged $35.00 which was doable for me. But then when he wanted close to $100 for Remeron, I tapered it on my own.

If this is viable, this would be the easiest way to go and then you could decide the rate you wanted to taper the meds at. Just be aware the your doctor might look at you like you are speaking a foreign language as must have no idea this option exists.

They might even try to imply it isn't safe or that the pharmacist might not use correct ingredients. But that just isn't the case as I had no problems whatsoever with Wellbutrin XL.

Best of luck.

49er

Luthie2006 wrote:I want to thank all of your for your input. There is nothing that I read that I will not use! So thanks to all of you! Since I am at work and don't remember who wrote what, I will comment in general to Library Lady, 49'er, Sleep Disturbed and Robysue: I know there are others too. Thank you kindly!

I have printed everything on the Cymbalta withdrawal documents and will take them home to read them. Apparently my Primary does not know the correct way to wean down. I believe all you over him. When I was there (in person) and told him I wanted to wean off the Cymbalta (for back pain) (since I am on Celebrex too and we think the Cymbalta has caused my 20 pound weight gain over 8 months time). This Primary doctor of mine did not even know that the Cymbalta was in CAPSULE FORM. He asked me to break them in half and then I told him that "Doc, they are capsules, stupid." His Eli Lilly rep gave him the samples, so he never apparently took them himself or needed to or even looked at the pill. I am, though, very surprised that none of his patients are complaining of horrible withdrawals from this, although I read countless information regarding patients on all kinds of websites on all the issues that they are having on withdrawing it. I just don't have the patience for counting out beads of medication or even weighing them. I wrote him an email this morning, that I want him to write me a script for 20 mg as well, and instead of getting off of it at 30 mg, I will get off of it at 20 mg somehow. I am pretty scared about weaning off this now since I have an array of other issues too, one of them being sleep apnea and insommnia.

As far as "clocks" are concerned, I don't take offense at anyone and am so glad that people wrote me on here about this, because this may solve or help solve my issue with waking up every hour or two with my CPAP mask on. It is an "unfounded" fear. I only overslept one time in 6 years time when having to get up for work. My job is very strict (work at a hospital) and if I don't get here on time, especially when the weather is horrible in the winter and then I have to get up even earlier yet, we get docked, so I guess I am always concerned about getting to work on time; not that I sleep deeply because I don't at all. I am a light sleeper. I hear everything. However, one time (like the member who is scared of live chickens) I set the alarm clock and it just didn't go off at all. I had it set at P.M. instead of A.M. and slept an hour over. So I will turn my clock around from now on. Now it's the Cymbalta withdrawal I am more concerned about. To the writer (I think 49er) is it mandatory to count beads of medication, or can I just wean now from 30 mg to 20 mg and then off? Thank you so kindly. Luthie

Thanks for your response robysue.

The only additional point I wanted to make was even if the bad habits were there prior to the med use, being on the meds can still make it difficult to correct them. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to apply good sleep practices but just be aware this might be an issue.

49er

robysue wrote:

49er wrote:robysue,

I really hate to disagree with you but as an FYI, psych meds like cymbalta can affect sleep big time making it every difficult to follow any type of sleep hygiene program. It certainly is worth a shot for Luthie but if she finds it is difficult to follow the rules, the effect of the Cymbalta might be an issue.

I don't discount the fact that tapering the cymbalta makes everything much more complicated. But Luthie is talking about a sleep pattern that predates both starting the Cymbalta and CPAP. She has written:

Luthie2006 wrote:Unfortunately I had the "awakenings all night every night" way before the Cymbalta for back pain and the CPAP machine.

So there's likely a pattern of bad sleep hygiene that makes the insomnia worse. And both the bad sleep hygiene and the insomnia have been around longer than any Cymbalta-related sleep issues. In other words, once she's through tapering the Cymbalta and off of that drug, her sleep problems are likely to remain because their roots predate the Cymbalta. And until the root causes of the insomnia are dealt with, the sleep is not likely to improve.

49er wrote:By the way, I know one person who got off of benzos by falling asleep in front of the TV. It was the only way this person could get to sleep even though the sleep hygience experts claims this would be a disaster. The sleep did eventually normalize without needing to use the TV.

Again, I'm not discounting that the Cymbalta tapering might be an issue. But the person you are speaking about probably did not have significant TV-related sleep problems before starting the benzos or before starting the benzo taper. Hence the temporary use of the technique of using the TV to fall asleep got the person over a significant hump. And his/her sleep was able to normalize after the withdrawal from benzos was completed because the temporary sleep problems were primarily caused by the benzos and/or the tapering off the benzos.

But if a person has had a long established habit of falling asleep in front of the TV that lead to sleep disruption prior to his/her starting benzos, and that habit and the resulting bad sleep continued while taking the benzos and continued while the person was working on the benzo taper, then his/her sleep most likely would NOT normalize within a few weeks of finishing the benzo taper: At the end of the taper, the person's sleep habits would likely revert to the pre-benzo troubled sleep pattern.

And in my opinion: Luthie's sleep was broken before she started the Cymbalta and it will remain broken after she finishes the taper unless she makes an effort to fix some habits (clock watching and trying to sleep in on days off in particular) that do seem to interfere significantly with her ability to get and stay asleep on most nights.

Does paying attention to sleep hygiene work for everybody? No. But do parts of "good sleep hygiene" work significantly for some people? Yes. And Luthie will not know whether or not clock watching and sleeping in on weekends are making it harder to stay asleep on most nights until and unless she tries getting up at the same time seven days a week for a while and learns to not watch the clock all night.

Regarding having fears that may seem irrational, personally, I have found that accepting them makes them disappear alot more quickly instead of passing judgment on them. One day, I noticed them coming up and simply by saying, "yup, your fears are understandable," I immediately felt better.

Part of accepting an irrational fear is understanding the fear is irrational and accurately assessing whether or not it is adversely affecting your day-to-day life.

I have a severe fear of live chickens with classic phobic reactions when I see a real live chiken. I even know the root cause of this fear---I was attacked by a large rooster when I was 2 and my family was visiting relatives who lived on a farm. So in one sense this fear is not unjustified. And I accept that fact and I don't even think about my fear of chickens for months at a time. But it is still there and it does border on the irrational. However, my intense fear of chickens doesn't affect my daily life at all. After all, in my day to day life I never have to face a live chicken. But this fear does raise its head occasionally: I hide my head under a handy afghan whenever I see a live chicken on a TV show and I won't come out until hubby assures me the chicken has gone away. When this happens, it provides a good laugh for both me and my husband after the chicken is no longer on the TV screen.

But if I had the same kind of phobic reaction to dogs stemming from an early childhood negative encounter with a dog, it would seriously affect my day to day life because it would limit my ability to take my hour long daily walks and it would seriously affect my enjoyment of those walks. And I would need to do something more proactive to deal with the fear rather than simply accepting it. In other words, if a fear is adversely affecting the quality of your life, you need to deal with it rather than allowing the fear to control you.

In Luthie's case: The fear of oversleeping is leading to a behavior pattern of constantly waking up, looking at the clock, and consciously making a decision about whether it is "ok" or not to try to fall into a deep sleep or simply doze. And this clock watching pattern is likely perpetuating the number of middle of night wakes. In other words, the fear of oversleeping is adversely affecting the quality of her sleep.

Now, if Luthie has a history of oversleeping, her fear of oversleeping is NOT unreasonable. In this case Luthie needs to figure out a way of reliably preventing the oversleeping that does NOT involve waking up every hour or two just to check the clock and make a decision about how much to allow or permit her body and brain to fall back into a deep sleep rather than just doze for the next hour or two. In other words, in this case, Luthie needs to address the fear of oversleeping by fixing the root cause: Fix the tendency to oversleep, and the fear of oversleeping should diminish, and as the fear of oversleeping starts to ebb, some of those unwelcome "clock watching" wakes should disappear.

But if Luthie has never overslept, the fear of oversleeping is NOT particularly reasonable, but her fear of oversleeping is adversely affecting the quality of her sleep nonetheless. And in this case, figuring out a way of getting over the fear of something that is not likely to happen is critically important in fixing the problem of multiple wakes accompanied by clock looking and calculating how much sleep time is left.

And that's why I asked: How big of a problem is oversleeping? Until we know how often Luthie actually oversleeps, we don't have a clue as to what a potentially useful way of addressing that fear is.

Clocks and Cymbalta: 8-6-14

I wrote an email to my Primary asking him if I can please receive a 20 mg Cymbalta script to wean down from my 30's, instead of going cold turkey off the 30's. He said, No, stick to our taper plan which is 30 mg every other day until next Tuesday; then every 3 days for 2 weeks, and then OFF. I hope he knows what he is talking about! I will stick to this plan, since he won't give me any lower doses from 30 mg.

Clocks: I turned the clock around backwards and set the alarm, and still woke up a few times (mainly to have to go to the bathroom) but other times for "no apparent reason." I did "sneak" a peak at the clock once for one bathroom trip because it felt like I had not slept very long. And sure enough I was right. Went to bed at 930 pm, and woke up at 11:45 pm for a bathroom trip. AHI this morning was good, 0.8

Hi Luthie,

Are these two doctors anywhere near where you live? I got them off of the physician friendly taper list from the surviving antidepressants website.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/ind ... r-clinics/

Elizabeth McMasters, MD McHenry, IL
Andrew Pundy, MD, Park Ridge, IL

I sure hope so because the fact that your physician isn't even willing to prescribe 20mg of Cymbalta is an outrage. I won't even repeat what my thoughts are regarding his attitude.

49er

Luthie2006 wrote:Clocks and Cymbalta: 8-6-14

I wrote an email to my Primary asking him if I can please receive a 20 mg Cymbalta script to wean down from my 30's, instead of going cold turkey off the 30's. He said, No, stick to our taper plan which is 30 mg every other day until next Tuesday; then every 3 days for 2 weeks, and then OFF. I hope he knows what he is talking about! I will stick to this plan, since he won't give me any lower doses from 30 mg.

Clocks: I turned the clock around backwards and set the alarm, and still woke up a few times (mainly to have to go to the bathroom) but other times for "no apparent reason." I did "sneak" a peak at the clock once for one bathroom trip because it felt like I had not slept very long. And sure enough I was right. Went to bed at 930 pm, and woke up at 11:45 pm for a bathroom trip. AHI this morning was good, 0.8

Luthie2006 wrote: Clocks: I turned the clock around backwards and set the alarm, and still woke up a few times (mainly to have to go to the bathroom) but other times for "no apparent reason." I did "sneak" a peak at the clock once for one bathroom trip because it felt like I had not slept very long. And sure enough I was right. Went to bed at 930 pm, and woke up at 11:45 pm for a bathroom trip. AHI this morning was good, 0.8

You got one full sleep cycle in before that wake. Chances are it was nothing more than a normal post REM wake and you decided to go to the bathroom once you realized you were awake. But if the wake was really triggered by your bladder being uncomfortably full after less than 2 hours, then you need to explore why the bladder is overactive. And that may have nothing to do with sleep at all.

Question: How close to bedtime do you drink your last full serving of any liquid? And what is the last liquid you drink before going to bed?

49'r: Dr. Pundy works at the same exact hospital that I do. I will contact his office. Thank you! I will write later.

Luthie2006 wrote:49'r: Dr. Pundy works at the same exact hospital that I do. I will contact his office. Thank you! I will write later.

I am so glad to hear that. I hope he can help you.

49er

Thanks 49'r. I just called his office and talked to a very nice receptionist who said I may not even need to go in to talk to him, and that she will relay the information to him and we will see if she can get the information from him to me. She didn't hear of horrible side effects herself. She said she was on Cymbalta and had to get off immediately because she found out she was pregnant and her only side effect was crankiness, no big deal. But she said she will talk to Dr. Pundy and get back to me. Since we both work in the same hospital, I am hoping that I can get some free advice. If he wants more details from me, and I have to come in to see him, I am willing to do that also.
Thanks 49'er. As they say it is a very small, small world. Imagine my working in the same exact place that he works! I will keep you posted! Thank you so much!