Sleepyhead vs. Encore

Again today Sleepyhead has reported longer sleep time than I slept ... 11:30 vs. 9 hours according to the LED on machine. The software also recorded events during the hours after the flow stopped. This has happened several times; I've learned to ignore the numbers and check the machine for accurate AHI. I know this is just a glitch in the software, but does it happen in Encore as well? I'm wondering if I should try using Encore and compare results on each for a while. Any ideas?

I use both but mostly depend on Encore unless I'm looking for something in particular.
My docs really like the Encore reports and ask for my most recent printouts every time I see them now.
If you can get Encore Pro successfully installed, its the better choice over Encore Basic because of execution speed.

Which version of SleepyHead are you using?
I forget...do you use a Mac and that's why we can't give you Encore?

Have you tried the latest SleepyHead?

I'm using Sleepyhead 9.5, I'm have Windows 8.1 - not using a Mac. I guess I just chose Sleepyhead at the beginning of this journey.

library lady wrote:Again today Sleepyhead has reported longer sleep time than I slept ... 11:30 vs. 9 hours according to the LED on machine.

What time zone do you live in? And when do you wake up and turn the machine off?

The machine's LCD data is updated at noon GMT regardless of where you live. So if you slept after noon GMT, that could explain the discrepancy.

Here's what I think you need to do:

Write down what time you GO to bed and turn the machine ON. Write down what time you WAKE UP and turn the machine OFF in the morning. Do this for a week. And while you're collecting the data, look at all the following things:

• The machine's reported 1-day usage in hours
• SleepyHead's usage in hours
• SleepyHead's Sleep time (start of first session) and Wake time (end of last session)

If SH is accurately recording the Sleep time and Wake time correctly, then the SH Hours is likely pretty close to being correct unless you're hitting a "double session" bug. When that shows up, the Sleep time and Wake time are correct, but usually the SH Hours is obviously wrong because it's longer than Wake time - Sleep time. You can also scroll all the way to the end of the Left Side bar in the Daily window and look for "double sessions"---i.e. a session that appears twice in the list.

The software also recorded events during the hours after the flow stopped.

Can you post an image of this? Sometimes the Flow Rate data can get corrupted on the SD card when the PR PAP is writing it to the card. SH sometimes will show the event flags, but not the flow rate data if it can extract the event flags correctly. (Sometimes SH just crashes.)

This has happened several times; I've learned to ignore the numbers and check the machine for accurate AHI. I know this is just a glitch in the software, but does it happen in Encore as well? I'm wondering if I should try using Encore and compare results on each for a while. Any ideas?

You could try looking at the data in Encore. But getting to the wave flow data is very difficult. And you'll only get the last night's wave flow. So there's no way to see if Encore has the same gap that SH has in data that is not "last night".

Another thing you need to know is that the Encore VSI and the SH VSI are computed in two entirely different ways. (And the Encore way of computing the VSI makes no mathematical sense and there's no documentation of why they compute it the way they do.)

Finally, SH 0.9.5 is pretty unstable. You might just want to update to SH 0.9.6 instead.

I always pay attention to what time I go to bed and what time I get up and turn the machine off....usually sleepyhead is right on, when I look at the sleepyhead report of sleep and wake times as well as event and session times. In just a little bit I will post images from last night...

Here are two screen shots showing the SAME night from last summer (night of June 7, 2013) when I went to bed at 12:36 AM on June 8, 2013.

Here's the night in SleepyHead:



And here's the same night in Encore:



This situation is not quite similar to the problem you are reporting since the missing wave flow data in SH occurs in a discrete session: I turned the machine OFF and back ON before the missing wave flow stuff start. I don't recall what happened before that "last" session, but I'm not in the habit of removing the SD card in the before I get up for the day; so I don't think the missing wave flow is caused by the SD card not being fully inserted in the machine. I suspect that something corrupted the wave flow for that session and that's why it doesn't show up in SH.

Comparing the two sets of graphs, you can see that the Encore Sleep Therapy Flags table contains the same tick marks as the Sleepy Head data, including those for the session with no wave flow. You'll also notice that the Daily Detailed data in Encore does not give you the usage time on the Daily Detailed Data page. (Stupid decision on Encore's part.) That information is several pages earlier in the Encore report under the Patterns of Use page(s). According to Encore, the usage was 7:30.

Comparing the two sets of indices, you'll see that all the SH ones except for VS round to the Encore indices. The Encore VSI is computed in a very different, and non-mathematically intuitive way. SH 0.9.6 computes the VSI on VS2 snores, but SH 0.9.5 computes the VSI on VS snores. In either case, the Encore and SH numbers are not going to agree. The periodic breathing % is slightly different between the two programs on this particular day. I have so little PB scored that I really can't tell you why the numbers might be different.

The 90% IPAP number is different because SH and Encore compute this number in slightly different fashions. When I have sat down and looked at the the Encore/SH 90% pressure numbers in detail, I've usually concluded that the SH number makes more sense. On this particular night, the 90% EPAP would exclude the highest 45 minutes of EPAP data since 10% of 7.5 = 0.75 hours = 45 minutes. As I compute it from the SH graph (which I can zoom in on), my EPAP = 6 for about 180 minutes, or roughly 3 hours. Since my EPAP never goes above 6 (my max EPAP setting), mathematically speaking, the 90% number, which only excludes the top 45 minutes of EPAP numbers, should be 6cm. SH's median EPAP = 5 looks to be correct since I just under 50% of the night at EPAP = 4cm.

Robysue,
I am in Central Time. There does not appear to be a double session time in sleepyhead:
Three sessions are showing:
23:47 00:31 - 44 min.
00:38 01:12 - 34 min.
01:16 11:52 - 10 hrs, 35 min.

It is accurate, I believe, except for the wake time of 11:52. I was actually looking at sleepyhead at 10 AM! I woke up and turned the machine off at 9:15, and the chart below shows no flow after that time. I checked the machine LED a few minutes ago and it shows the same number of hours I saw this morning, 9hrs, 12 minutes, which would put the flow stoppage at the same time that I turned the machine. Sleepyhead shows an AHI last night of 1.01, the LED shows it as 1.3... I'm not concerned about that discrepancy as either number is more than acceptable, but I like to look for trends in sleepyhead - I still snore a lot, etc. and I try to figure out how to minimize the problem areas.

The flow limitation event times that I've included below did not show the entire list for me to snip... there was one other "event" that doesn't show up here.

library lady wrote:Robysue,
I am in Central Time.

Noon GMT is 7:00 AM in Central Daylight Time. (I'm assuming that you are on daylight savings time.)

So if you sleep past 7:00 AM by varying amounts each day, that could explain the discrepancies between the machine's LCD and, shall we say, reality.

There does not appear to be a double session time in sleepyhead:
Three sessions are showing:
23:47 00:31 - 44 min.
00:38 01:12 - 34 min.
01:16 11:52 - 10 hrs, 35 min.

So you think that the 1:16 start time is (roughly) correct, but you know the 11:52 end time isn't because you were looking at SleepyHead at 10 am local time.

Ok---it's a really off the wall idea but I'll throw it out anyway: Any chance you or an alien or a pet cat turned the machine on almost as soon as you turned it off? And the machine was running for a while without a person attached to it?

And when did you pull the card out of the machine? Right after you got up? Or later in the day?

I checked the machine LED a few minutes ago and it shows the same number of hours I saw this morning, 9hrs, 12 minutes, which would put the flow stoppage at the same time that I turned the machine.

Unless you looked at the LCD before it was 7:00AM your time, I'd expect the number to not change just because it's later in the day.

Sleepyhead shows an AHI last night of 1.01, the LED shows it as 1.3... I'm not concerned about that discrepancy as either number is more than acceptable,

Yes, it's reasonable to not be over concerned. But if SleepyHead is over calculating the usage, that would explain the difference in AHI. So we get right back to "Why does SleepyHead have the Wake time incorrect?"

It would be useful if you would be willing to download SleepyHead 0.9.6 and see what this data looks like in that version of SleepyHead. Version 0.9.5 is pretty unstable and you might be looking at one of the numerous weird bugs in that version. If this kind of thing persists in SH 0.9.6, it's something that JediMark might need to know about. But there's no point in filing a bug report for 0.9.5 anymore.

I'd suggest: See what this data looks like in SH 0.9.6 first since SH 0.9.6 is going to be easier to install and faster to run than Encore is. (Encore is a real system hog.) If the problem is still present in SH 0.9.6, then it may indeed be worth installing Encore and looking at the data there as well. And if there are real discrepancies and it's not too much trouble, letting JediMark know about the problem would help him make future versions of SH more robust.

Most days I do sleep past 7... always varies a little. No aliens, pets, or little toddlers around here... "just only me" as I used to say when I was a toddler. Occasionally I wake up to find that the hose is disconnected, but I recall the two wake ups last night and what they were for so I doubt it. I don't pull the card out until I'm ready to open sleepyhead - which is after I've had a couple cups of coffee to wake me up. I will download the 9.6 version of sleepyhead and see what happens, keeping track of my sleep/wake times, etc.

robysue wrote: So we get right back to "Why does SleepyHead have the Wake time incorrect?"

It would be useful if you would be willing to download SleepyHead 0.9.6 and see what this data looks like in that version of SleepyHead. Version 0.9.5 is pretty unstable and you might be looking at one of the numerous weird bugs in that version. If this kind of thing persists in SH 0.9.6, it's something that JediMark might need to know about. But there's no point in filing a bug report for 0.9.5 anymore.

I'd suggest: See what this data looks like in SH 0.9.6 first since SH 0.9.6 is going to be easier to install and faster to run than Encore is. (Encore is a real system hog.) If the problem is still present in SH 0.9.6, then it may indeed be worth installing Encore and looking at the data there as well. And if there are real discrepancies and it's not too much trouble, letting JediMark know about the problem would help him make future versions of SH more robust.

Robysue. I filed a bug on (I think) 0.9.5 of sleepyhead about not calculating the sessions end times correctly when I was using a prs1 560 machine. it would get the start times within a couple minutes, but the end times would be further and further off. 0.9.6 and 0.9.7 haven't shown that bug to me.

I second your "get a newer version" answer.

This was a summary times bug that was fixed in 0.9.6

I've now installed 9.6 of sleepyhead.

I use both Sleepyhead and Encore for my PR machines. I tend to be of the camp that likes to use both to show different views relating to certain areas. Encore can be annoying though if you're really trying to zoom in on your flow lines which record your breathing... they give you a PDF report which just turns into pixilated junk if you zoom down to about 60 seconds worth of breathing.

Sir NoddinOff wrote: Encore can be annoying though if you're really trying to zoom in on your flow lines which record your breathing... they give you a PDF report which just turns into pixilated junk if you zoom down to about 60 seconds worth of breathing.

This is why I only use Encore when I'm getting ready to print something off to hand to my doctor. The flow lines are static and you really can't zoom in on them in the same way you can in SH.

And EncoreBasic only stores one flow line: If you want all your flow lines, you have to remember to look at and SAVE each individual flow line as its own pdf every single day. If you don't get around to downloading on Monday, the flow rate for Sunday night (which stays on the SD card) will not be loaded into either Encore Basic or Encore Pro (unless Pro randomly decides to down load 2 flow rate curves instead of one.)