Overcoming long-term sleep debt

Hi all,

I have been reading William C. Dement's The Promise of Sleep (which was recommended by a forum user) and it is really really fascinating. But reading the chapter on sleep debt and how people overcome sleep debt freaked me out. I'm pretty sure I've had sleep apnea for years and years and years before getting it treated finally this last December. How much sleep debt have I accumulated? How will I ever pay it all back?

Has anyone else had experience with overcoming long-term sleep debt? What did you have to do?

Thanks!

Starpilot wrote:Hi all,

I have been reading William C. Dement's The Promise of Sleep (which was recommended by a forum user) and it is really really fascinating. But reading the chapter on sleep debt and how people overcome sleep debt freaked me out. I'm pretty sure I've had sleep apnea for years and years and years before getting it treated finally this last December. How much sleep debt have I accumulated? How will I ever pay it all back?

Has anyone else had experience with overcoming long-term sleep debt? What did you have to do?

Thanks!

All you have to do is get good restorative sleep . Once you have conquered using your machine and mask nicely, you will find you are getting much more energy during the day and be able to do many more things.... those things that you were too tired to do before. Nothing scary about it, just get some good sleep, doesn't have to be long, anywhere from 6 to 8 hours nightly will do the trick.

Starpilot wrote:Hi all,

I have been reading William C. Dement's The Promise of Sleep (which was recommended by a forum user) and it is really really fascinating. But reading the chapter on sleep debt and how people overcome sleep debt freaked me out. I'm pretty sure I've had sleep apnea for years and years and years before getting it treated finally this last December. How much sleep debt have I accumulated? How will I ever pay it all back?

Has anyone else had experience with overcoming long-term sleep debt? What did you have to do?

Thanks!

I don't believe in sleep debt or that you can make up for lack of sleep, and think it's a bunch of nonsense. I don't think you can make up for lost sleep or the lack of oxygen from years past. Once you start successfully using your machine it's likely you'll start reaping the benefits, thus having more energy and feeling better.

I suspect the idea of sleep debt comes from the ability (and desire) to finally sleep a full night.
Enjoy, and use the energy you gain to become more active and healthy.

Starpilot wrote:Hi all,

I have been reading William C. Dement's The Promise of Sleep (which was recommended by a forum user) and it is really really fascinating. But reading the chapter on sleep debt and how people overcome sleep debt freaked me out. I'm pretty sure I've had sleep apnea for years and years and years before getting it treated finally this last December. How much sleep debt have I accumulated? How will I ever pay it all back?

Has anyone else had experience with overcoming long-term sleep debt? What did you have to do?

Thanks!

Well, I DO believe in "sleep debt" and in retrospect have come to believe that in various degrees I've had obstructive sleep apnea most of my life.
I'm more inclined to believe that the "sleep debt" converts to a "bodily debt" as the loss of oxygen when we sleep puts our body under stress.......which leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and other cardiovascular and physical problems.

All you can do is try to fine tune your therapy and hope for the best. Worrying about it isn't going to help anything.

I've personally never read any of Dement's books, but many people have commented on them here over the years.


Den (still making payments on his debt)

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i agree with ems. long term sleep debt makes no sense.

Wulfman... wrote:
I'm more inclined to believe that the "sleep debt" converts to a "bodily debt" as the loss of oxygen when we sleep puts our body under stress.......which leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and other cardiovascular and physical problems.

All you can do is try to fine tune your therapy and hope for the best. Worrying about it isn't going to help anything.

"I'm more inclined to believe that the loss of oxygen when we sleep puts our body under stress... which leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and other cardiovascular and physical problems." Your quote - kind of, but doesn't that sound more like it?

You can't pay anything back, but you can move forward in the hopes that nothing will be made worse. As you did say, "worrying" about what happened years ago or last month isn't going to help. You can't fix what happened before, at least in this case, but you can move forward.

I think in essence we are saying the same thing... I just don't like the term, "sleep debt".

ems wrote: I don't believe in sleep debt or that you can make up for lack of sleep, and think it's a bunch of nonsense. I don't think you can make up for lost sleep or the lack of oxygen from years past. Once you start successfully using your machine it's likely you'll start reaping the benefits, thus having more energy and feeling better.

I'm sorta half way to where ems is coming from. I think you can have somewhat of a sleep debt, but I think you can generally overcome it with a few weeks of catch-up sleep, hopefully with CPAP. After decades of poor sleep, however, I think you can a accrue a lot of physical body damage and even mental damage which may or may not be reversible. Sorry, I can't cite any peer studies (and don't think there are any) but that's my two cents worth.

Since I am one of those who got IMMEDIATE benefit from use of CPAP, my "Sleep Debt" was either much less than I expected OR God wrote off the unpaid balance.

Now the toll on my body of those X years of untreated apnea may or may not ever be repaid.

I guess I can always hope for a government bailout.
After all, they have bailed out much less important entities than I.

I really think we are talking about 2 distinct / separate things here.

I am a BIG believer in sleep debt. It took me a good 6 months of 8+ hours of sleep a day to finally be "normal". Meaning make it though the day without needing a nap or feeling sleepy and tired. I have my freedom back. This fall I was able to go on a driving trip and spend over 10 hours driving, and no problem. Last year in March I could not even drive to work any more.

No one can ever convince me that there is no such thing has sleep debt.

ems wrote: I don't believe in sleep debt or that you can make up for lack of sleep, and think it's a bunch of nonsense. I don't think you can make up for lost sleep or the lack of oxygen from years past. Once you start successfully using your machine it's likely you'll start reaping the benefits, thus having more energy and feeling better.

If you believe in the bolded part, can you explain to me how after using a machine with a minimum of 7hours per night for 6 months and a AHI average of 1 I still feel tired and no energy upon waking?

ems wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:
I'm more inclined to believe that the "sleep debt" converts to a "bodily debt" as the loss of oxygen when we sleep puts our body under stress.......which leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and other cardiovascular and physical problems.

All you can do is try to fine tune your therapy and hope for the best. Worrying about it isn't going to help anything.

"I'm more inclined to believe that the loss of oxygen when we sleep puts our body under stress... which leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and other cardiovascular and physical problems." Your quote - kind of, but doesn't that sound more like it?

You can't pay anything back, but you can move forward in the hopes that nothing will be made worse. As you did say, "worrying" about what happened years ago or last month isn't going to help. You can't fix what happened before, at least in this case, but you can move forward.

I think in essence we are saying the same thing... I just don't like the term, "sleep debt".

I still disagree. From my own experience (which is all I have to go by), in the first year of therapy I lost about 50 lbs. and my blood pressure dropped to the point where I could discontinue my BP medications.
Since then, I've lost some more weight......about 25 lbs.
I already had (undiagnosed) Diabetes years before I had my sleep study.......and that CAN'T be cured, but more oxygenated sleep can help.

My belief is that if a person just goes along with getting the minimum amount of sleep with this therapy, you CAN'T pay back much, if any "sleep/bodily debt"........but, more and better sleep (with optimal therapy) CAN help undo some of the damage.


Den

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Wulfman... wrote: I still disagree. From my own experience (which is all I have to go by), in the first year of therapy I lost about 50 lbs. and my blood pressure dropped to the point where I could discontinue my BP medications.
Since then, I've lost some more weight......about 25 lbs.
I already had (undiagnosed) Diabetes years before I had my sleep study.......and that CAN'T be cured, but more oxygenated sleep can help.

My belief is that if a person just goes along with getting the minimum amount of sleep with this therapy, you CAN'T pay back much, if any "sleep/bodily debt"........but, more and better sleep (with optimal therapy) CAN help undo some of the damage.


Den

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+1 for the Wulfman

mgaggie wrote:

ems wrote: I don't believe in sleep debt or that you can make up for lack of sleep, and think it's a bunch of nonsense. I don't think you can make up for lost sleep or the lack of oxygen from years past. Once you start successfully using your machine it's likely you'll start reaping the benefits, thus having more energy and feeling better.

If you believe in the bolded part, can you explain to me how after using a machine with a minimum of 7hours per night for 6 months and a AHI average of 1 I still feel tired and no energy upon waking?

I don't really "believe" in the bolded part. I just didn't want to upset the OP, along with the fact that some people are fortunate enough to actually reap the benefits. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people and I guess neither are you. That's a big reason why I have such a difficult time using the machine. When something highly annoying isn't making you feel any better, it's hard to continue to use it.

Wulfman... wrote:I still disagree. From my own experience (which is all I have to go by), in the first year of therapy I lost about 50 lbs. and my blood pressure dropped to the point where I could discontinue my BP medications.
Since then, I've lost some more weight......about 25 lbs.
I already had (undiagnosed) Diabetes years before I had my sleep study.......and that CAN'T be cured, but more oxygenated sleep can help.

My belief is that if a person just goes along with getting the minimum amount of sleep with this therapy, you CAN'T pay back much, if any "sleep/bodily debt"........but, more and better sleep (with optimal therapy) CAN help undo some of the damage.


Den

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Den... I'm sincerely happy that this therapy works so well for you. Losing 75 lbs. and getting your diabetes under control is huge!

That said... you didn't pay anything "back" - you moved "forward" and lost weight, which enabled your diabetes and BP to be controlled.

We are arguing over words... nuff.