Terrible Insomnia and Sleep Apnea

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
SleepyGirl
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:30 pm

Terrible Insomnia and Sleep Apnea

Post by SleepyGirl » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:40 pm

Hi,

I am 27 years old and was just diagnosed with mild to moderate obstructive sleep apnea after two visits to a sleep clinic. The problem is that I've been having horrible headaches for the past year accompanied by the worst sleep ever imaginable. Sleeping meds are of no use to me either.

So, after being really tired all day and miserable for a year, I finally did this sleep clinic thing and was truly surprised to hear that I have sleep apnea because I am young, thin, and have low blood pressure (I also don't snore). I really had no reason to suspect that this was even an issue for me except that I've known for at least for the past year that I've been miserable due to my quality of sleep, including the ability to both fall and stay asleep. I am waiting on seeing my doctor again for him to recommend the next step to take, but my huge question is this - can sleep apnea, even a clinically mild case of apnea cause chronic insomnia? This sounds terrible, but I feel so tired at times that I just want to die. Will the CPAP machine or dental orthotic help my insomnia? I am desperate to know if anyone else has had both sleep apnea and chronic insomnia and was helped by being treated for their apnea.

Please, please, please let me know if you were in this position at some point in time.

Thanks!

Sara

53now
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:22 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Post by 53now » Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:42 pm

Sara
You certainly have a "plate full" going on in your life. I'm not a doctor but I think some of your problems can solved or at least eased a bit. I have had problems sleeping all of my life (I'm 53) Four years ago, 2 things happened that changed my life forever. (1) I had a sleep study and started Cpap Therpy....(2) I found a Book written by John Wiedman (a former insomniac) The Book "Desperately Seeking Snoozin" was a Godsend because it helped me follow the correct patterns needed to get good sleep. Lifestyle/exercise/diet/night time routines/depression/smoking/alcohol etc play a big role in sleep therpy.
Get the Book my friend !!!!! and follow through on the sleep Apnea treatment. There are several wonderful people here on "Cpaptalk" who will walk you through this journey. Hang in there
Let us know what's happening with you
Rich
Last edited by 53now on Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jolene

Felt better, no headache after CPAP use

Post by Jolene » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:47 pm

I was waking up every morning with a headache. I also had terible insomnia at night, waking frequently. I had very little energy during the day and though I was just getting old. After using the CPAP machine halfway through my sleep study I awoke refreshed with no headache Yes there is life without insomnia and headaches. The slight inconvienance of using a mask is well repaid in a good nights rest. Jolene

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:30 am

can sleep apnea, even a clinically mild case of apnea cause chronic insomnia? This sounds terrible, but I feel so tired at times that I just want to die. Will the CPAP machine or dental orthotic help my insomnia?
Speaking only from my experience, the answer would be yes.

My AHI was only 18 (which is moderate) but the death and fatigue I can relate to. I often feel like the walking dead. However, don't let your AHI be the only measure of your sleeping problems. Your AHI is needed to determine whether or not CPAP is an appropriate treatment. However, you should also take into account your total arousals index (meaning your respiratory and "other" arousals). Mine was 36. Meaning my brain shifted to the awake stage every 1.6 minutes, and only half of the arousals were caused by apnea. The new challenge for me, now that the apnea is under control, is to find out what is causing the other arousals. It could very well be that the other arousals are indirectly related to apnea, and that they will disappear once the apnea treated. Perhaps a residual defense mechanism of the brain keeps me awake to prepare for the next respiratory event. Who knows..

My thought on the whole insomnia thing is that because of the apnea, I became (perhaps on a subconscious level), very anxious at bedtime which made it difficult to fall asleep, and stay asleep. I suspect that because of the apnea and subsequent surges of adrenaline all through the night because of it, conditioned me not to be able to shut down and rest.
It's like my brain was thinking at bedtime, "Oh no ! Im going to start starving again, I don't want it to happen so I'm not going to shut off...")
At my worst, I was waking up every hour, all through the night, and needing a half hour or more between each awakening to fall back into a light sleep.

My slippers wore thin from all the trips to the bathroom (The connection between Sleep Apnea and Nocturia is very interesting...)

Sleeping pills and the psychological addiction they create was also a challenge, since most, if not all of them worsen OSA.

However, after being on CPAP for about 5 weeks, I am now sleeping better (not as good as I would like ). In fact, for the past 3 nights I have only woke up twice which is a miracle. Sleeping 3-4 hours in a row is great. I still feel brain dead, but I have a bit more energy. I am hopeful the trend continues...

So to answer your question, yes CPAP can help with moderate or even mild apnea, but don't expect immediate results. In fact, adjusting to CPAP use can often create other sleeping problems until you get used to it. Dental appliances are not very effective (according to my sleep Doc), and they often create TMJ. Treating your apnea should help your body calm down at night and will help you sleep better. Eventually...

ps. Another great book is "No more sleepless nights" by Peter Hauri. Looks like Amazon has a ton of used ones. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

Guest

Thanks

Post by Guest » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:26 am

Thanks for the replies. I feel like I'm constantly awake, apparently as the sleep study showed, even when they're registering me as sleeping. I stopped breathing only 71 times the first night which I guess is considered mild (even though that doesn't sound mild to me). I don't think it's great thing to stop breathing even once! On the second night, with the CPAP, I didn't have any apnea. They said I slept, but I woke up feeling just as tired as usual. I don't think this is entirely a behavioral issue which is why I finally asked my doctor to do the sleep study. I try to follow most of the sleeping recommendations as much as possible, with only an occasional drink a few hours before bed. I'm down on my sleeping pill use, as they've only seemed to increase my problems in the long run. They were great at first!
I also know they don't help for sleep apnea, and I am often afraid that I am accidentally going to overdose. Needless to say, this has been a very difficult year for both me and my husband. I don't want to try anything else that isn't going to work, so if it's the CPAP that I need to do, then I'll do it.

I've already tried orthotics for suspected TMJ which did nothing but make my gums bleed and was very painful initially for about a month. When the sleep technician mentioned me getting another orthotic I was like "oh no, not this again!" There's got to be some solution to this. My father has severe apnea and without CPAP will stop breathing about a thousand times a night. He never had any problems getting to sleep though and he snored extremely loudly!!! I don't fit the picture of a typical apnea case, especially with the insomnia thrown into the mix. I am glad that there are those of you who think the two can possibly be related because that is my hope and prayer at this point.

I also don't know if anyone can relate to the physical side effects of poor sleep like unsightly purple circles and bags under the eyes. I am always trying to cover these up like it's my big secret that I have to keep from the world. I really feel that people respond differently to me when I have my "face on" than without. I think it makes me look angry or depressed or something which really makes me feel sad because this isn't something that I can control and I already feel exhausted. I even get facials from time to time now because I feel like I look so terrible and that the sleep deprivation is causing me to age prematurely. I just got married and not all of the festivities are even over yet, so of course I want to look youthful and pretty, not dead tired. Is there any magic cream out there that really works? I am really good at the whole make-up thing being an artsy type person, but even my skills can't cover up the effects this is having on me. I know the only thing that's really going to help is sleep, but I'd at least like to look somewhat refreshed.

Anyway, looking forward to your replies.

Sara

lucky lindi

Thanks

Post by lucky lindi » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:25 pm

I am 52 and was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea in November. I have been using the CPAP since Christmas and I can tell the difference. I have more energy and don't " wake up" exhausted.

I have been having problems with insomnia which is what caused my doctor to recommend the sleep study.

I am glad to have found this web sitre. I have learned alot about the experiences from reading the posts. Thanksyou to all for sharing.

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:09 pm

Hi Sara,
I can't tell you how much I can relate to your story. I have severe insomnia. Currently it is Sleep Maintenence insomnia. I wake up all night long and often it takes along time to get back to sleep. Lately I get 4 or 5 hours of sleep nightly and I am on a trend of waking up at 3 am for the day. I like to get up at 5am since I swim early in the morning. But two or three am does not cut it. I have had several sleep docs tell me that apnea can cause insomnia and treatment with CPAP can help if that is the cause. I have also read that it causes insomnia. Insomnia is more common in women with apnea then with men. It is also common with Upper Airway Resistance Syndorme. I have an RDI of 17. Do most people consider that Moderate? Does anyone know?

I feel as desparate as you do. The insomnia is really wrecking the quality of my life an often my days are over before it gets light. I am often too tired to do anything more by 6 or 7am and just have the long wait till beditme until I can get some more sleep I can rarely nap. What is your RDI. I have been told that how tired you are is not always correlated with the RDI. There are people with severe apnea that are not tired and people with an RDI of 5 that are exausted. I don't know yet how much the CPAP or dental appliance will help my insomnia yet because I have not gotten my apnea optimally treated yet due to many factors. My neurologist thinks treating getting the apnea optimally treated should really help the insomnia.

It made my day to read your story. I don't want you to suffer. But it really the first time let me hear a real live story of someone who is experiencing what I am experiencing.
Lisa

Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:15 pm

Sara,
I am new to this list and can't figure out how to send an email to a private email box. Can you email me at Lisamarti@yahoo.com I would like to talk about our experiences with the insomnia/Apnea issues.
Lisa

User avatar
wading thru the muck!
Posts: 2799
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:42 am

Post by wading thru the muck! » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:29 pm

Lisa,

You can only send a PM from a registered member to a registered member.

Why don't you become registered. We'd love you to join.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!

SleepyGirl
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:30 pm

E-mail Address/Chatting Further

Post by SleepyGirl » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:53 pm

Lisa:

I am SO sorry to hear that you have the same thing as I do. I am not familiar with what the abbreviation you used for the times you stopped breathing or what your oxygen level was when monitored, perhaps someone else on this board will know. What's interesting though is that if your breathing changed (as I'm assuming that is what happened) 17 times per hour, then that means that I stopped breathing or my breathing changed almost exactly the same amount of times as you did. Do you often feel so dead tired that you feel you're going to or might fall down? I have been experiencing that along with some minor and intermittent chest pains lately. As you know I also have headaches. Do you?

You may be posting as a guest even though you're actually logged in to the system. That happened to me earlier today. I will send you an E-mail so that you will have my E-mail address.

Take Care,

Sara

PS - Are you able to work like this?

lisamarti
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:38 pm

Post by lisamarti » Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:12 pm

Sara,
No, I have not been able to work for several years. I had three sleep studies that did not pick up on my apnea. The first was when I was 28 years old in 1991. I did not get it diagnosed till 2003 at Stanford Sleep Disorders Cinic. Since it was not diagnosed my situation became increasingly more complicated. Stanford thinks I likely had it all my life. I used to be very thin until recent years. My metabolism is all messed up now. I am overweight but not extremely.

I work out a ton. It helps mask the fatigue somewhat. I would go nuts if I didnt work out. It helps me think when sleep deprived. I consider it a sleep replacement albeit a very poor one.

RDI is respiratory index or the number of breathing events one has and hr. Apnea- the airway collapses and you stop breathing
Hypopnea- the airway narrows and can cause arousals from sleep
RERA-Respiratory Effort Arousal- disrupts sleep causing arousals because you are working so hard to breathe. I had a mixture of these. Probably mostly Hypopnea.
Lisa

Janelle

Post by Janelle » Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:13 pm

I can sympathize with the dark circles under the eyes. Mine were also sunken underneath. Right before I started CPAP I was given Gabitril by my Sleep Dr. to help increase my stage 3/4 sleep which I was missing. In just two days I lost that tired look, and even without makeup people said I looked great and rested.

When I look at myself in the mirror now, after being on CPAP since Dec. 9 I don't see those circles or the sunken look anymore because even though I'm still not getting 8 hours, the sleep I'm getting is more restful and it shows.

Many years ago I had trouble staying asleep. Would have to stay up until i couldn't keep my eyes open to stay asleep until 3, and then I'd wake up and could never get back to sleep. then I started falling asleep almost immediately at different times, falling asleep watching TV even in the morning or right after lunch, getting very drowsy driving, but still kept waking up during the night several times.

Then the morning headaches started which went away about an hour after I got up. Says I to self, "Hey, kiddo, you've got oxygen deprivation during your sleep causing that".

About a week later I fell asleep driving and had a wreck. Next day I was in my doctor's office. I had been complaining of fatigue and lack of energy for years, but we couldn't find a cause. When I told her about the wreck, the headaches, etc. she agreed I had sleep apnea, told me under no conditions to drive until it was resolved, and sent me almost directly to an ENT doctor to check for OSA. The rest is history.

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Lana
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Location: San Francisco, CA

Post by Lana » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:50 am

Stanford Sleep Disorder Clinic has recently disclosed results of study which shows direct corelation between serious illnises and sleep deprivation. Study was done on healthy subjects free of any health problems, all young people, without sleep problems. After only one week some of the subjects were showing signs of begining simptoms of Diabetes and some other serious diseases. This article was published in San Francisco Chronicle.
Before Cpap I was having problems sleeping, always tired, sleepy and low energy. Now, my energy level is up, I do not take afternoon naps, however I have problem sleeping due to all Cpap equipment. Nasal prong leaks, air swoshing sound that follows leaks is just driving me up the wall. Sometimes I use Ambien, sometimes Melatonin and it helps some. Overal, I do not feel I have solved my sleep apnea problem because one bad thing have been replaced with another...go figure.
Sometimes, all I need is the air that I breathe!

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LDuyer
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Hi

Post by LDuyer » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:07 am

Before diagnosis and treatment, I kept waking up many times a night and wondering why. But also, I saw that my heart was racing every time! That wasn't logical since I knew the heart rests some at night. It certainly shouldn't have been racing. It was racing like I'd just jogged around the track! I was already on my way to big heart problems due to this sleep apnea, so I'm glad that racing heart worried me enough to send me to a doctor.

Things are alot better with my bipap. But I also struggle getting used to this thing. But when I have trouble, I try to remember back to just a couple of months ago when I woke all the time to a racing heart yet was incredibly exhausted during the day. I'd rather struggle with my bipap than struggle without it.

Janelle

Post by Janelle » Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:10 am

Lana, what type of nasal pillows/mask are you using. You shouldn't be having that much leaking. You might get a better seal using larger nasal pillows if the unit came with them. Do you have problems with your mouth opening at night? Are you taping your mouth or using a chin strap?