OT - Do these heaters save money?

chunkyfrog wrote:Since our electricity is among the cheapest in the country, and the gas utilities have a license to steal,
we switched to all electric over 30 years ago. (and have saved thousands!

When I designed and planned our house in 2007 a heat pump with a COP of 3 (see above about COP) would bring heat into the house at about 1/2 the cost of natural gas. By the time we moved in in early 2009 prices of electricity had risen and gas had dropped so now a COP of three brings electric heat cost to about the same or slightly greater than natural gas. Propane is still on par with electricity for energy cost.

Hi All, thanks for the input... I went over my situation with the company here and have decided not to go for the deal (and it would have been one if I thought the thing would do what I hoped). Thanks anyhow... the weather is so unseasonal now (warmer) though, I might be lucky with bills anyway.

Regarding the question about propane. The one that is cheapest is dependent on the relative cost of KWh versus propane cost per gallon.
If you go to https://www.dropbox.com/s/p34iddvwn6m3o ... ropane.exe you can download a small program that will make the simple calculation for you.
It allows you to enter the appliance efficiency.

Note: For Windows Vista and higher you will need to download and install a Microsoft program that allows you to use help files with the "hlp" extension for whatever operating system you are using.
You can download it http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607

Clay - having grown up in a place famous for fires due to misuse of propane stoves in winter, I will never have propane anything on my property, let alone inside... plus I'm 100% electric baseboards as is and have no $$ to change over to anything else at this point. But thanks for the info.

Julie wrote:plus I'm 100% electric baseboards as is

As you already know, that gives you about the most flexibility possible for controlling room-by-room heating. The next best suggestion I can think of is to hang some fans near the ceiling to push the warm air down, that is if you don't already have ceiling fans. The one downside of baseboard heat, other than the cost of electricity, is the air it heats floats to the top of the room by convection. Not only is the upper air just hotter, but the higher temperature creates a greater temperature difference between the inner and outer surfaces of the ceiling. The greater the temperature difference the greater the heat transfer. Pushing that warm air back down will help quite a bit, both by making the room air temperature more uniform bottom to top but also reducing the temperature at the ceiling. Fans are pretty inexpensive if you don't already have them. It doesn't take much to move the air around.

If you are already using ceiling fans then the only option left is to improve the insulation value and air tightness of the building envelope. If finances don't permit that you really are between a rock and hard place, and I feel for you.

Ditto, and cleaning the heater elements, at least seasonally. Maybe if the thermostats can be turned down in milder weather, in rooms you aren't using, if they are set up so you can.

Most people are fooled falsely into thinking they can save money with small electric heaters, but in reality they are to help in emergencies as spot heaters, as with everything words can make things look better than they really are. Jim

Julie wrote:Clay - having grown up in a place famous for fires due to misuse of propane stoves in winter, I will never have propane anything on my property, let alone inside... plus I'm 100% electric baseboards as is and have no $$ to change over to anything else at this point. But thanks for the info.

I should have noted that Pugsy mentioned the issue in her post.

Weatherproofing your house makes the biggest difference;
If you don't have to hire out the work, it's also cheapest.
Many cities have senior handyman programs to help out--
but rentals are not generally included.

Do these heaters save money?

Here is how I have used space heaters to save money. When I am up and moving around cold doesn't bother me. But it does bother me when I sit down to work at my desk, read, jabber on the phone or watch TV.

So I can keep the thermostat on our natural gas system two or three degrees below where I am comfortable and place the heater near me when sitting.

I turn the gas down another 2 or 3 when I go to bed. When I sit down for breakfast my little space heater has made my chair and table very warm.

ClayL wrote: I should have noted that Pugsy mentioned the issue in her post.

I saw your comment and figured it was probably meant for me.
I have no desire to investigate propane costs though to try to come up with some sort of comparison...it is what it is and not much I can do about it anyway. More work than I want to tackle.
Crappy old house with crappy old furnace that won't be replaced anytime soon.

The addition of the infrared heater in my situation offers me more general comfort and that's what is important for me.
It has 3 wattage settings available and I get good comfort with the lowest usage setting.
So I am more comfortable and the furnace doesn't run as much. With the cost of propane here where I live..and the crappy old furnace...I probably save on propane costs but maybe spend it on electricity...
Since it isn't a huge expense and I am more comfortable in general...I am good with what I am doing.
It may be a wash in terms of cost or it may actually cost a little more to use the infrared heater (but it isn't hugely more because electric bill didn't increase hugely) but I am okay with whatever it is because I am more comfortable in general.

In the past I have used these - oil filled space heaters. I had an apartment where the back room had 3 walls to the exterior and it was always cold in the winter.

I bought a couple of Airworks 450 watt mini oil-filled heaters when I was working. (one as back-up--clearance at Shopko)
One under my desk in the winter kept the chill off my left knee enough to prevent my arthritis from stiffening up and aching.
Several co-workers used "antique" 1200 watt space heaters (provided) for identical results.
The county could have saved quite a few bucks by turning up the thermostat;
--but then the surveyors would have been miserable when they came inside.

idamtnboy wrote:

-tim wrote:The new split systems make 6 watts of heat for every watt of electricity giving them a COP of 6.

I'd have to see the tech data sheets to believe it's that high. More likely COP at best is 3 to 4, and then it depends on the temperature difference between the source and load.

The smaller systems are getting very energy efficient. The Sharp AYXP12 (3.5 kW cooling- good for a large bedroom- the 1st I found online that appears to be sold in the US) is 4.33 at extremes. Similar models tend to have a "9" in them that are good for about 2.5 kW of heating or cooling are around 6 at their sweet spot.

The comments about gas vs electricity are true. A modern electric system with a 3x factor of heating is about the same cost as a gas system to run for a whole house. I still think the smaller units are better for just heating a room but here they cost about $800 for a high efficiency unit and about $700 to install. I expect install in the US would be much cheaper. My systems are about 20 times cheaper to run as cooler than old window units based on looking at their real power usage and they have dropped my heating bills so low that the daily connect charge for the gas and electricity is a major component of the bills at nearly $1/day. I've picked up a bit of surplus solar gear so that should nearly erase the cooling costs.

I think it's possible that units in Australia (like the big heaters high up on the walls of otherwise unheated rooms) are different in operation and relative costs to either American or Canadian ones, so comparing them is difficult. Plus your weather's nothing like ours - cold, damp and windy in winter, but not way below freezing, very little (if any) snow, and little insulation in homes (ours are heavily insulated when built (except possibly for very old ones to which are usually - now - added pumped in foam these days.

I just saw a space heater last night (Menards) that has a motion detector.
If nothing moves in 30 minutes, it shuts off.