PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

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teleute
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PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by teleute » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:19 am

So my husband has been using a trial PR System One 60 Series (561) for a little while now. He remarked a couple of nights ago that something felt different - it didn't feel like it was reacting to his breathing the same way. I did some more research on the machine, and found this:
Auto-Trial mode delivers breath-by-breath auto-CPAP therapy for up to a total of 30 days, after which the device automatically transitions into the CPAP-Check mode at the pressure the patient was at or below 90% of the trial period time.

CPAP-Check mode checks on the user every 30 hours to determine if therapy pressure is optimal; if not, it automatically adjusts the nightly fixed CPAP pressure by 1 cm H2O to obtain ideal pressure.
So it seems like basically it stops functioning as an APAP after a short period of time, and then reverts to CPAP functionality, albeit one where that fixed pressure may adjust slightly every few nights or so. Am I reading that correctly?

To me, it doesn't seem like this is really an APAP. I mean, his pressures in the Trial mode showed quite different needs for back or side sleeping. How is an adjustment every 30 hours going to help that?

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Last edited by teleute on Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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robysue
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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by robysue » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:44 am

The PR System One REMStar 60 Series Pro CPAP Machine is a straight CPAP that offers a limited 30 day APAP mode. The Pro is model number 460 or 461.

The PR System One REMStar 60 Series Auto CPAP Machine is a full-fledged APAP that can be permanently run in Auto mode. The Auto CPAP is model number 560 or 561.

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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by squid13 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:46 am

What you have is the SE Model http://www.healthcare.philips.com/us_en ... systemone/ This is the new auto machine that is a true auto. https://www.cpap.com/productpage/pr-sys ... -tube.html

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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by RandyJ » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:55 am

squid13 wrote:What you have is the SE Model http://www.healthcare.philips.com/us_en ... systemone/ This is the new auto machine that is a true auto. https://www.cpap.com/productpage/pr-sys ... -tube.html
Squid,

She says in her post that she has model 561...


Teleute,

Can you look on the bottom of the blower to make sure that the model number/ref is 561 and not something else?

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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by squid13 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:24 pm

RandyJ wrote:Squid,

She says in her post that she has model 561... If it changes to CPAP after 30 days this is what she has.http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_h ... sSheet.pdf

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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by RandyJ » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:46 pm

squid13 wrote: If it changes to CPAP after 30 days this is what she has.http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_h ... sSheet.pdf

Or she could have the AutoIQ if she has a 50 Series Machine... which is why I asked her to actually look on the bottom of her blower to see what the REF number is which will tell us definitively which one....

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Re: PR System One machines not true APAPs?

Post by Lazer1234 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:49 pm

squid13 wrote:
RandyJ wrote:Squid,

She says in her post that she has model 561... If it changes to CPAP after 30 days this is what she has.http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_h ... sSheet.pdf
She could have 460 or 461 too, if it change from apap to cpap after 30 days.

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teleute
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PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by teleute » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:48 pm

I can't look at the machine physically til I'm home, but I'm looking at a Sleepyhead screenshot I took and it shows 561. And it looks exactly like the 56x posted from cpap.com.

So generally the consensus is that the 4xx model should do this, but the 5xx model should be a true APAP? I just found this link on the PR site with comparisons, and it still shows the Auto machine as having the Auto-trial mode.
http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_ ... -guide.pdf

Maybe it doesn't automatically switch out of it like the other one, though? Their site on the System One just lumps them all together and talks about the Auto Trial and CPAP Check modes like they all do it, which I find confusing. http://www.healthcare.philips.com/us_en ... systemone/

Add that to the machines all being named/numbered so similarly and it's really irritating me.

So hopefully the 561 we have (I'll physically double check later, but fairly confident) isn't doing that. That was just my conjecture as to why he was feeling a change in how the machine was responding to him. He said that before, when he'd hold his breath, he could feel the machine basically pushing at him with pressure. As of 2 nights ago, that's abruptly changed - if he holds his breath it just does nothing. I don't think it's a matter of him getting used to it, as it felt like an abrupt change from one night to the next. Which of these is normal, and any thoughts on why it might change? Didn't change any settings that night (and the only setting I've touched is minimum pressure, which I hadn't change for days before this.)

We tried going to a follow up appointment at the DME, but they were closed at the time we were told for the appointment.

Thanks!

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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by BlackSpinner » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:09 pm

If I remember right, my pr 60 had the option to do a titration and set the pressure. I made sure to turn that option off. But that was a year ago so it may have just been in the manual.

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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by Lazer1234 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:15 pm

PR has these different mode.

The 460 is the cpap, auto-trial, cpap-check
The 560 is the cpap, apap, auto-trial, cpap-check + Optistart that adjusts minimum pressure every 30 hours

Here is a older discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93824&p=866227#p866071

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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by robysue » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:40 pm

teleute wrote: So generally the consensus is that the 4xx model should do this, but the 5xx model should be a true APAP? I just found this link on the PR site with comparisons, and it still shows the Auto machine as having the Auto-trial mode.
http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_ ... -guide.pdf
The page that you linked to shows the PR Auto CPAP (model 560/61) as having four different modes that it can be run in, one of which is Auto-trial, which will do something like 30 days of APAP and then automatically switch to the "optimal" CPAP pressure as determined by the Auto-trial. But the fourth mode is plain old Auto which is a real APAP setting that does NOT switch to CPAP after 30 days.

The page you linked to also shows the PR Pro CPAP (model 460/461) as only having three different modes, and the mode that the PR Pro CPAP is missing is the plain old Auto mode.
Maybe it doesn't automatically switch out of it like the other one, though? Their site on the System One just lumps them all together and talks about the Auto Trial and CPAP Check modes like they all do it, which I find confusing. http://www.healthcare.philips.com/us_en ... systemone/

Add that to the machines all being named/numbered so similarly and it's really irritating me.
Yes, it is confusing. But think of it this way:

The PR System One Plus is the basic model. It doesn't do anything special--i.e. it only has straight CPAP mode and it only records usage data.

The PR System one Pro does everything the Plus model does AND it also has two additional modes of operation (CPAP-check, and Auto-trial) as well as straight CPAP and it records efficacy data.

The PR System one Auto does everything the Pro model does AND it also has a fourth mode of operation---namely real APAP mode in addition to the three modes the PR System One Pro has available.
So hopefully the 561 we have (I'll physically double check later, but fairly confident) isn't doing that. That was just my conjecture as to why he was feeling a change in how the machine was responding to him. He said that before, when he'd hold his breath, he could feel the machine basically pushing at him with pressure. As of 2 nights ago, that's abruptly changed - if he holds his breath it just does nothing. I don't think it's a matter of him getting used to it, as it felt like an abrupt change from one night to the next. Which of these is normal, and any thoughts on why it might change? Didn't change any settings that night (and the only setting I've touched is minimum pressure, which I hadn't change for days before this.)
My guess is that the RT who set the machine up (mistakenly) chose Auto-Trial as the therapy mode instead of the correct Auto mode.

In that case, the fix is easy: Get into the clinical menu and select Auto instead of Auto-Trial for the therapy mode. If you don't have the clinical manual, you can get it from Apnea Board at http://www.apneaboard.com. You may have to register as a poster over there to request the clinical manual for the 561 machine.
We tried going to a follow up appointment at the DME, but they were closed at the time we were told for the appointment.
If you take it back to the DME ask them to check the therapy settings in your presence and explain each setting to you. Don't just let them take the machine in the back, run through the menu, and give it back to you saying everything checked out fine. When they're going through the therapy settings, look for Auto vs. Auto-Trial for the therapy mode.

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teleute
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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by teleute » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:44 pm

Perfect - thank you! That is indeed clearer. I'll check and/or get everything checked out and report back.

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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by chunkyfrog » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:04 pm

Also, please let us know if the machine has a modem attached.

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teleute
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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by teleute » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:34 pm

Well, it's definitely the 561, it's definitely on Auto mode, and it does seem to be adjusting pressure. I have no idea how to tell if there's a modem unless I'm just looking for a phone jack, which I don't see.

So I'm still puzzled as to exactly what issue hubby seems to be experiencing. I'm tempted to say I'll ask him to observe more and give a better description, but I'm worried that it could lead to him overanalyzing when he's supposed to be falling asleep.

Anyway, this has been helpful (I was worried that this machine might not be what we wanted to buy after all, which would be sad because other than this it's worked very well for him so far). Thanks again, everyone! If I get more data from him on what's going on I may revisit this, otherwise I think I'll just leave it for now as long as his numbers are good and he's feeling good.

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Re: PR APAP weirdness was:PR System One machines not true APAPs

Post by BlackSpinner » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:48 pm

Maybe he is just getting used to the pressures? I know that some nights I wake up and I have to check that it is still on by feeling the exhaust. And one night after a bad dream I ripped the mask off, turned off the machine and dug out my back up machine because I was sure it was not working right.

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