Train accident

islandboy5150 wrote:Yea, maybe he'd been fired for it, but if I was on that train, I'd rather he take the firing rather than the controls. A real man would have done whatever it took to make sure they didn't cause an accident like that. Too many pansy assed pussies around. Just sayin'

islandboy5150,

It is great to talk tough about what this person should have done or not done but if you are like most people on this earth, my guess if you have gotten behind the wheel at least once when you shouldn't haven't done it. The only reason you didn't encounter any tragedies was that you were lucky.

By the way, I find your inference that this guy might have been a pussie ironic because in many businesses, he would have been labeled in a similar manner if he had refused a shift due to being tired. The usual response was would be something like this, "Oh come on now, you're backing out because of a little fatigue? What a wimp."

I agree with the posts that have stated that until we know all the facts, it really is foolish to speculate. And I include myself since I was guilty of doing that.

49er

49er wrote:

islandboy5150 wrote:Yea, maybe he'd been fired for it, but if I was on that train, I'd rather he take the firing rather than the controls. A real man would have done whatever it took to make sure they didn't cause an accident like that. Too many pansy assed pussies around. Just sayin'

islandboy5150,

It is great to talk tough about what this person should have done or not done but if you are like most people on this earth, my guess if you have gotten behind the wheel at least once when you shouldn't haven't done it. The only reason you didn't encounter any tragedies was that you were lucky.

By the way, I find your inference that this guy might have been a pussie ironic because in many businesses, he would have been labeled in a similar manner if he had refused a shift due to being tired. The usual response was would be something like this, "Oh come on now, you're backing out because of a little fatigue? What a wimp."

I agree with the posts that have stated that until we know all the facts, it really is foolish to speculate. And I include myself since I was guilty of doing that.

49er

I've never taken the controls of a passenger train running at high speeds when I shouldn't, no. I pull off the road when I get tired driving a car. He should have done whatever it took to stay awake, or if that might not be possible, then he shouldn't take the controls. Really, what frosts my flakes is all the excuses made for thus guy. I say no excuse for falling asleep, period. Period.

Working most jobs doesn't compare to the responsibility of driving a train, a bus, or flying a plane full of passengers. That's my point. He had an obligation to those people, to operate that train in a safe manner. Or not operate it at all. That's where the pussy part comes in.

It takes only about five minutes to use a simple OSA screening tool (see: http://umm.edu/programs/sleep/health/qu ... leep-apnea ).

The doctors have no excuse if they missed it.

Maybe the questionnaire should be in the waiting room of every physician in the country? Whichever country you happen to be in.

islandboy5150 wrote:Yea, maybe he'd been fired for it, but if I was on that train, I'd rather he take the firing rather than the controls. A real man would have done whatever it took to make sure they didn't cause an accident like that. Too many pansy assed pussies around. Just sayin'

I agree. Is this man being protected by a union?


ChicagoGramps

I heard on the news the Chicago train driver who drove up on the platform complained about not getting good sleep. Much the same issue sounds like. I think they need to start routinely testing engineers for sleep apnea.

roster wrote: Why not everyone?

I have long advocated that routine physicals include a screening questionnaire and anatomy evaluation (jaw and airway) for sleep apnea.

They check your blood pressure, heart rate, cholesterol and body temperature. What not take another two minutes to look for the root cause of some of the dysfunction of these items?

Amen.

Totally agree with Roster and JNK. When I drove a vehicle for various employers several years ago, I should have been required to have a physical to make sure that I didn't have any conditions that prevented me from being a safe driver.

And just so people know, I don't think apnea was an issue but of course, I can't say for sure. But I do recall a few times when I didn't feel safe driving for some reason, I spoke up. The stakes were simply too high not to.

49er

idamtnboy wrote:I heard on the news the Chicago train driver who drove up on the platform complained about not getting good sleep. Much the same issue sounds like. I think they need to start routinely testing engineers for sleep apnea.

No, they shouldn't be checking for sleep apnea, they should be doing a full PSG. While sleep apnea may be the most common medical cause of EDS, it is certainly not the only one. Slapping a pulse oximeter on them overnight isn't going to catch other issues contributing to sleep deprivation.

The other problem is that no test can really show issues like poor sleep hygiene, or shift-work sleep issues. A better option for that might be regular random reaction-rate testing. Maybe in addition to a dead-mans switch, a black box that would randomly light up (simulating a problem) and record the reaction time to hit a button, basically simulating an issue, maybe like that Simon game

jnk wrote:

roster wrote: Why not everyone?

I have long advocated that routine physicals include a screening questionnaire and anatomy evaluation (jaw and airway) for sleep apnea.

They check your blood pressure, heart rate, cholesterol and body temperature. What not take another two minutes to look for the root cause of some of the dysfunction of these items?

Amen.

+1.

Dentists especially could easily be trained for this!

ironhands wrote:. . . no test can really show issues like . . .

True.

All humans occasionally have bad nights of sleep for one reason or another. Chronic pain can disrupt sleep just like bad breathing, for example. Even so-called non-drowsy meds for allergies still slow reaction times.

Nevertheless, if we only let the people who never have sleep issues drive trains (or cars for that matter), no one on the planet would qualify to do it. It is a line that is impossible to draw when it depends on the honesty of self-reporting.

Since drivers would get fired if they refused to drive whenever they had a bad night of sleep (or two), this is a problem with no easy solutions. It is similar to the problem of it being policy that sick people shouldn't handle food, while at the same time there is no provision in place for the people who handle food for a living to opt out of doing so when they are sick--if they plan on still getting their meager paycheck at the end of the week, anyway.

That is one reason I consider the people behind the wheel to be victims too whenever terrible tragedies occur. Have any of us chosen to get behind the wheel of our vehicles when we were only feeling 80% alert? 90% alert, 99% alert? Then we have chosen to put lives at risk in much the same way as those labeled reckless and irresponsible by the media using their measure.

true enough, but still, if they're going to have to pass a medical, even every few years, it should certainly be for ALL medical causes of EDS, not just apnea. Chronic pain, general chronic insomnia, RLS... there's so many other medical issues that can destroy the sleep cycle and lead to falling asleep at the wheel that a PSG would catch, where a take-home oximeter test wouldn't see.

For me, the solution is to make PAP therapy available to all drivers and not to require testing in order for them to qualify to explore their response to the therapy. That solves the cost issues in one fell swoop, as far as I am concerned, since the machines are dirt cheap compared to the testing. I mean, does requiring a $2000 test to be taken in order for someone to be allowed to try a rental of a $200 machine actually make sense to anybody anywhere? Especially when use of the machine may be lifesaving to drivers and passengers and pedestrians alike?

I believe firmly in the value of PSG, but not if it slows or hinders access to PAP.

But hey, just me. And I realize that my thinking can at times be, uh, "nonstandard."

Once insurance companies as a whole do enough cost-benefit testing with their models, though, I believe that they will want any patient who says "I get sleepy sometimes" to qualify to try PAP. Eventually, the risk-insurance people for the transportation and heavy-equipment industries will decide to override the medical-insurance people's short-sighted foolishness in how they restrict access to PAP therapy.

In my opinion.

because PAP won't really help anything outside of apnea, and may make their sleep worse and uncomfortable while trying out something that they may not need.

Nobody uses it for fun. If it doesn't help, you discontinue, just like any other therapy.

We don't restrict access to aspirin just because someone with a more serious cause for their headache may misuse it.

If you use it but are still sleepy, then a full PSG may be cost-effective at that point, with the approach I suggest.