Heated Hose not working out for me

Hi all,

I'm finding too much rainout in my mask even with the heated hose now that it is cold weather. When switching back to my old PRS1 machine with a standard hose I don't have nearly the same problem, just a little. I believe it is because a humidifier setting of "1" when using the Heated Hose on the 60-series starts at 70% humidity, and that's just too much. If I'm on the old machine with setting 2 that is supposed to be closer to 50% humidity which seems to work well for my sinuses.

Other than "off" for humidity (which would be pass-over humidification) on the 60-series, does anyone know how to reduce the % ? I'm sorry Philips Respironics didn't give the old 5-level range for humidity when using the heated hose. I'm guessing 50% humidity with heat would be a perfect no-rainout solution for me at my current bedroom nighttime temperatures. Has anyone tried using the old style chamber and lid with a 60-series? The new chambers were supposed to be better at humidifying, so maybe the old style chamber would knock the % down a bit? Or does anyone have a new 60-series machine with a wider range of humidity settings allowed in their firmware, while using the heated hose?

--SleepyCPAP

Just use a regular hose on the new 60 series machine and then the machine will default back to the 'new humidification system' way of doing things like your old PR S1 did. The 1 through 3 settings for humidity delivery is only available when the heated hose is attached.
You can use a regular non heated hose on the humidifier without changing anything but the hose.

Bear in mind if you are getting rain out at the mask level from the moisture in your own exhaled breath that even if you didn't use a humidifier at all you could still maybe get that annoying condensation.

With the heated hose attached...you have 2 settings in the clinical menu.
3 settings 1....2...3 for humidity delivery with 1 being the lowest 70%
5 settings 1..2..3..4..5 for air temp in the heated hose with 5 being the warmest.
If you are using a heated hose and in the temperature setting (which is all you see on top of the machine when not in the clinical menu)and you are using 1...that's a very low temperature and it won't prevent much rain out.

you might try a setting of 1 for humidity delivery and 5 for air temp to see if that helps with condensation at the mask level.

For the PR S1 heated hose users...
To change the humidity delivered you must go into the clinical setup menu...those are the 1 through 3 settings.
That number 1 through 5 that you get with the turning of the knob on the machine is only for temperature delivery. If you are thinking you are reducing the humidity by turn that number down to 1..you are only reducing the air temp in the hose and pretty much going to guarantee some rain out if you like a cold bedroom because at 1 you are only going to get 4 degrees above bedroom ambient temp.
That's not enough warmth...especially at the mask level where the air in the hose has gone farther past the heat sensors in the end of the long hose..even further if we use a mask with a short hose.
To reduce chance of rain out....must increase the temperature...not decrease it because warm air can old onto the moisture better.

Ok, so maybe I'm more awake today. Instead of asking if anyone had tried the old style humidifier chamber in 60-series, I should have just tried it myself. No the old chamber lid has different notches and ridges on top and won't slide in. So that isn't a way to decrease humidity.

Yes, what pugsy said -- humidifier settings are only in the set up menu when the heated hose is attached. The knob controls the hose.

I do have my humidity set to "1" and the dial set to "4" (which is the heated hose temp.). But the fact that humidity 1=70% means my breath hits moisture-laden air and starts to form droplets. I could turn the hose to "5" and see if that is just enough heat to overcome the problem, but I'd really rather just bring the humidity down and I can't figure a way of doing it short of putting humidity to "0" (passover mode, no heat). I am guessing 50% humidity and a 3 or 4 heated hose setting would end up being perfect. Old machine with unheated hose, with around 50% ("2" out of 5) setting is nearly perfect, but sometimes I get drops in the mask and those drops sometimes whistle in the vent holes.

The manual for the 460 implies that "Classic" humidification would work with heated hose. Perhaps C1 and heated hose? I'm not going to try it tonight, but if anyone else has done Classic mode humidification with their heated hose on their 60-series PRS1 machines, let me know if you've got tips.

--SleepyCPAP

SleepyCPAP wrote: I do have my humidity set to "1" and the dial set to "4" (which is the heated hose temp.). But the fact that humidity 1=70% means my breath hits moisture-laden air and starts to form droplets. I could turn the hose to "5" and see if that is just enough heat to overcome the problem,

70% releative humidity is 70% relative humidity regardless of the temperature. You turn the temp on the hose up, and the amount of water in the heated air goes up in order to keep the relative humidity at 70%. If the problem is caused by the fact that your exhaled air is supersaturating the air when the air in the tube is at 70% and the temp is at "4", then it's likely that your exhaled air will still supersaturate or come close to supersaturating the air in the tube at "5"---unless the temp at "5" is a whole lot warmer than it is at "4". And in that case, will the extra heat cause you any problems???

but I'd really rather just bring the humidity down and I can't figure a way of doing it short of putting humidity to "0" (passover mode, no heat). I am guessing 50% humidity and a 3 or 4 heated hose setting would end up being perfect. Old machine with unheated hose, with around 50% ("2" out of 5) setting is nearly perfect, but sometimes I get drops in the mask and those drops sometimes whistle in the vent holes.

So you tried the heated hose only to deal with the rainout in the mask?? Or is the warmer air also more comfortable for you to breath? I'm trying get an understanding of the primary reason you're using the heated hose---is it for rainout prevention or is it because you like breathing the warmer air?

If rainout prevention is your primary goal: Did you ever try using a hose cozy on a regular hose and routing the hose under the covers and next to your body instead of over head?

The manual for the 460 implies that "Classic" humidification would work with heated hose. Perhaps C1 and heated hose? I'm not going to try it tonight, but if anyone else has done Classic mode humidification with their heated hose on their 60-series PRS1 machines, let me know if you've got tips.

C1 is going to provide a fixed amount of heat to the humidifier plate. It will NOT adjust the heat under the humidifier tank based on the ambient temperature and humidity of the room. In general, the "Classic" settings provide more humidity than the corresponding "non-classic" setting on the System One humidifier when used with a non heated hose. So the question becomes: Will the C1 setting provide too much heat (and hence too much humidity) given your bedroom's typical air temperature and relative humidity? The only way to answer that question is to test it. Best of luck.

Where is the rain out problem? Is it in the hose or the nasal pillows themselves?

If it is in the nasal pillows...that is a problem that can happen even if a person doesn't use a humidifier at all. Moisture in our breath gets into the barrel of the nasal pillows and the cooler bedroom temps cool it and the water is released.
Solutions for that type of rain out.
1..Barrel cozy from padacheek.
2..Warmer bedroom temp.
3..Warmer air coming to the mask either with a heated hose or hose cozy and/or maybe using a short hose cozy on the short hose assembly.

I don't think Classic mode is going to solve your problem. It uses more water than the "system on new humidification mode" that is the default for the non heated hose operation.

robysue wrote:
So you tried the heated hose only to deal with the rainout in the mask??

Yes, my bedroom gets cool (just low 60's F) in winter. I like it that way -- once upon a time I would have enjoyed colder. But with the Swift FX and now with the TAP PAP I could get droplets in the vents, and the noise would wake me. With the Swift FX I sometimes would get it running into my nostrils if I was lucky (TAP PAP doesn't seem to do that). I thought putting the heated hose on would fix that. I also saw another manufacturer tout potentially lower pressure with heated hose (can't find the reference... maybe Devilbiss?) and I'm always glad to experiment. I put up with the heated air because I think it will solve problems, not because I want it or like it.

pugsy wrote:
Where is the rain out problem? Is it in the hose or the nasal pillows themselves?

I don't believe I've ever had a rainout problem in the hose for either of my machines. It is, as you suspected, my breath condensing in the mask. I have not looked to see if there is a barrel cozy for TAP PAP. Do I remember a thread where you used a different cozy but it fit the TAP PAP?

Cozy and short hose cover are most likely my next steps. That would work with either machine. Under covers might be workable but I like running my hose over my head. I remember starting out in my first month(s) on CPAP doing the under-covers way, but after switching to nasal pillows I've liked the way it goes up.

Thanks for helping me.

--SleepyCPAP

I have an old barrel cozy that fit my Swift FX that I have been able to make fit the Tap Pap plastic barrel. Had to enlarged the holes a little to slip it over the nasal pillows. It works but there's a little bit of bunching on the lateral sides unless I fold it inwards.
Karen at Padacheek has said that the Swift LT barrel cozy also will fit the Tap Pap barrel.....I think. Might want to ask her to make sure.

Here's the deal. You are likely going to have that condensation in the barrel even if you didn't have a humidifier hooked up.
In the past I have read too many instances where people are having condensation at the mask and not even having a humidifier attached. It's just something that happens when we have cold bedroom air cool the masks and it isn't just nasal pillow masks either.

Like you, I also prefer a really cool bedroom...and last few nights when the temps have dropped and my really poorly insulated bedroom gets cold...I have had some water in the barrel so tonight I will put the old Swift FX barrel cozy back on the Tap Pap barrel.
I had taken it off when I washed everything last weekend and didn't put it back on and I have been having cold water droplets leak out on my cheek the last 3 nights and that's with the temperature on the heated hose set to 5. Now I haven't tried reducing my humidity setting because if I did that my nasal mucosa and sinuses would give me a LOT more problems than a few drops of water on my cheek gives me. Besides...I am not so sure that reducing the humidity setting would make that much difference in the barrel itself. I like not having the added weight of the hose cozies though...though I could use one I suppose but kinda got spoiled not using one. Back 4 plus years ago when I first started therapy hose cozies or the pricey Aussie heated hose were pretty much our only options and even the heated hose is no guarantee that the condensation won't occur. For me it's just easier and more comfortable to add the barrel cozy. The material feels like silk where it touches my nostrils...still using the same barrel cozy that I bought back in Feb 2011 from Padacheek....and it felt so good I used it even in the summer.

I could turn up the furnace and just warm the house up but the hot flashes are still kicking in and I just prefer a cold bedroom.
So that's the compromise I have made...put a little coat on my mask.

I'm not really going to go down the machine advice route because all the really knowledgeable people are already dealing with that. I don't know as much as they do, and so their advice is going to be the sound advice

What I can do is make the point i'm in the UK, where temperatures are at zero degrees or 32 Fahrenheit, and because I sleep in an attic I'm currently doing out, which has no insulation, I can expect as low as 10 degrees, 50 Fahrenheit. Not only that, RH is 90% + as the house isn't ventilated well yet. Sometimes I wake up and there's rain on the walls as I've not finished work on the attic yet and the cold walls condense it all out of the air. I should be a sitting duck for rainout.

The kit I have you see listed below, and I have the heated hose on max , but I get no rain out, so what I'm really saying is I think the heated hose I'm using is good for 10 Fahrenheit with no rain out. if I got rain out I'd go bezerk and wake up instantly - but if you are sleeping warmer, and have similar kit, I think there's mileage in the kit you have

cheers
Andy