Normal Pulse-ox results

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kwikwater
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Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:25 pm

I was an instant believer in my CPAP therapy. That was 8 years ago. In the past year and a half, something had changed. My GP doc suggested getting a nocturnal pulse oximetry. I told her I had my own and would do that. I had a bunch of computer trouble and eventually just pushed that to one side. As my sleep quality continued to decline, I got my CMS 50D+ back in working order and was startled by the first results. I accumulated enough nights to show patterns, then got a pulse-ox from the hospital to verify that mine was working well. About that time I decided that I would go dial-a-winging and bumped my pressure from 9.5 to 10.5. I am still wrestling with seeing a consistent pattern with my pulse ox and my SleepyHead data. I’ve slept with my pulse ox nearly every night for 6 weeks.

I took some sample results of both CPAP & Pulse ox to the GP last Friday and much as I expected got some nonplussed responses. She looked the 10-12 pulse ox nights and indicated that nights that had dips down to 75-78% didn’t excite her as “10-15 min events. We look at the overall night’s average", which for me was around 91-94% before the pressure change. I just didn’t’ think that 75-80% for 10 mins, 2-4 times a night wasn’t good for me. Since my pressure change, I rate my waking sleep quality much better!! I will say she agreed to a new sleep study and a referral to a pulmonologist. Yea!!

I’m attaching 4 sample night’s results. I’m having trouble finding examples of what a person should expect to see as an overnight normal pattern, let alone the importance of the 10 minute drops in saturation. I would love to hear from people who have done multiple nights of a pulse ox. I don’t know normal from acute!!! My first question is do others see the 2-3 drops in blood ox that my graphs show. It would be fun to know how that pattern relates to Sleep Stages!!

Tell me more, folks. Thanks!!
Kelvin

P.S. Not sure I did the photos correctly. There should be 4 of them. Holler if I need to re-do the photo postings!!! I guess the one shown on the Preview, is to click on to take ya to PhotoBucket to see all.

Image

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Todzo
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Todzo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:16 pm

I would love to see a "close up" of the 2a to 3a time (an hour view) and perhaps a ten minute view during that hour as well. Thanks!

Todzo
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:28 pm

Todzo wrote:I would love to see a "close up" of the 2a to 3a time (an hour view) and perhaps a ten minute view during that hour as well. Thanks!

Todzo
Todzo, I've added 6 files to the album in PhotoBucket. Just click on the sample in the original post and look for 9-16 60 mins; 9-16 10 min #1,#2, #3, #4, #5 for the 10 minute breakdown.

I continue to look forward to learn if the dips I see in all my examples are common to others'. I'm not worried about tying the pulse-ox to CPAP data yet. Does anyone else see dips in their O2 like mine?

thanks again!

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Todzo » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:19 am

kwikwater wrote:
Todzo wrote:I would love to see a "close up" of the 2a to 3a time (an hour view) and perhaps a ten minute view during that hour as well. Thanks!

Todzo
Todzo, I've added 6 files to the album in PhotoBucket. Just click on the sample in the original post and look for 9-16 60 mins; 9-16 10 min #1,#2, #3, #4, #5 for the 10 minute breakdown.

I continue to look forward to learn if the dips I see in all my examples are common to others'. I'm not worried about tying the pulse-ox to CPAP data yet. Does anyone else see dips in their O2 like mine?

thanks again!
I use a 50F. Never seen desats that deep and fast and such a large cluster - as well my heart rate seems to follow the events more than yours follows the deeper events.

How are you securing the 50D+ to your finger?
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Pugsy » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:20 am

Zoom in on those sharp drops below 85% and look for grey lines which signify loss of contact with the pulse ox.

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kwikwater
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:34 am

Pugsy wrote:Zoom in on those sharp drops below 85% and look for grey lines which signify loss of contact with the pulse ox.
Pugsy: Do you mean the Green &/or blue line becomes green? Mine are very consistent green & blue. Todzo, I just clip in on, then put a sock over my hand. I think It stays in place.....??

I'm looking forward to reviewing these with a pulmonologist!!! As I've increased my pressure 12 days ago, the low drops are much better! I don't have my appointment yet, and will probably hold of dial-a-winging until then.

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Pugsy » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:06 am

The green line. Zoom in real close to make sure that there isn't any part of that line that is gray. Probably needs to be zoomed in so you can see just a couple of minutes of the line at a time.
Normal desats don't drop that fast or come up that fast. Normally there is a rather slow downward drift and the same rather slow upward drift..more like the very first desat that is shown at approx the 00:15 to just tiny past 01:00.

Also did you have any apnea events during that time frame where things dropped so significantly? Any clustering of events during that time frame?

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Todzo » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:37 pm

kwikwater wrote:
Todzo wrote:I would love to see a "close up" of the 2a to 3a time (an hour view) and perhaps a ten minute view during that hour as well. Thanks!

Todzo
Todzo, I've added 6 files to the album in PhotoBucket. Just click on the sample in the original post and look for 9-16 60 mins; 9-16 10 min #1,#2, #3, #4, #5 for the 10 minute breakdown.

I continue to look forward to learn if the dips I see in all my examples are common to others'. I'm not worried about tying the pulse-ox to CPAP data yet. Does anyone else see dips in their O2 like mine?

thanks again!
Just to see if it makes a difference you might try using some skin friendly tape (look at threads about taping the mouth) to hold the pulse oximeter in place. I know that the oxygen line is the first to go crazy when it is slipping off. But as Pugsy points out there should be evidence in the data train if that is true and I see little that looks like that. Also, wash and carefully dry hands before bed and clean the pulse oximeter sensor area (probably sufficient to wipe with a damp clean cloth and dry).

How do you feel after a night of clusters as shown? How is your performance during the day? Do you have times when it gets quiet and you seem to go dull?

How much physical exercise do you get?

Ok, I am a bit curious about this one.

Also ask you docs how it is that a person can desaturate so quickly. I have a couple of pulse oximeters and both tell the same story. At my desk if I stop breathing I MAY see a change of up to 2% during the time I am not breathing (stopped at the end of exhale BTW) which is 30 seconds long or during the following 30 recovery seconds. I have repeated this many times and the results are consistent. There is also that they start looking for a loss of consciousness around SpO2=55% which was my lowest oxygen level during my sleep study. Yet the world record for under water breath holding is 22:22! Yet your levels seem to drop at nearly 1%/second?!?!? What is it that appears to remove the oxygen so quickly from the system?

Have a great week!

Todzo
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:33 pm

Thanks all for your replies so far. I'll post a copy of my sleepyhead for the same night, for those interested. I really wish we could attach a night's data file, so it could be opened and zoomed!!!! I'm waiting for the sleep lab to call me to schedule and will resurrect this thread when that's done and I've met with the pulmonologist. Meanwhile, I am still pleased with my pressure increase and the days of this level of desat seems to be behind me. the pattern still exists but it hasn't gone below 88-90% for 3-4 days now.

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by HoseCrusher » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:48 pm

kwikwater it seems that your results are real and not caused by artifacts. At least that is what the close up graphs indicate.

It appears that your oxygen levels drop as you enter deeper sleep stages and when this happens you see a raise in heart rate. What is interesting is that as you linger in a desaturated condition your heart rate seems to normalize. In lighter sleep you don't seem to desaturate and your pulse rate follows a more normal rate.

A sleep study will help you dial in on this and if you can enter a deeper stage of sleep during titration you should be able to eliminate the obstruction that is causing your oxygen levels to drop.

A more normal graph would show no desaturations below 90% and your heart rate would gradually decline from when you get into bed until just before you wake up. Normal pulse rate fluctuates a fair amount and only goes real flat just before death. Yours looks quite healthy.

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by pbriggs » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:49 am

Well, for me your screen shots are not all the unusual...
here is a full night view in sleepyhead - typical for me
Image

here is the full night in spo2review
Image

zooming in with sleepyhead
Image

zooming in with spo2review
Image

To me the desat is a very low number - I was told by my doctor that if I fall below 88% for more than 5 minutes that he would consider o2 while sleeping

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by Todzo » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:02 pm

pbriggs wrote:Well, for me your screen shots are not all the unusual...
here is a full night view in sleepyhead - typical for me

To me the desat is a very low number - I was told by my doctor that if I fall below 88% for more than 5 minutes that he would consider o2 while sleeping
Unless you are a large person an average minute ventilation rate of 8.25 liters per minute is a lot. You show little in the way of respiratory events. Your high volume seems to be attained through high respiratory rates.

So lets say that makes you a bit tending toward washing out much of your CO2 blood gas levels. And then lets assume that there is a bit of extra stress in your life which may account for the high respiratory rates. Both of these things tend to reduce circulation to the extremities. Your sample point is a finger tip – certainly the definition of an extremity.

What I am thinking is that these hugh oxygen saturation changes which are seen in your finger tip are very much a local event. What is true in the extreme extremity of a finger tip may not be so much true for the rest of the body. Also, it makes sense to me that the circulatory changes which would be caused by hypocapnea (low CO2 blood gas levels) and stress could account for the oxygen saturation changes in your finger tip even though I see no respiratory or heart rate change events that would account for or indicate such changes.

The scary part of this is that the brains circulatory system is also sensitive to low CO2 levels.

With what I know now I would recommend that you have your vitamin D levels checked. Those who are working with the D3 hormone (A.K.A. Vitamin D3) (e.g. Dr. Stasha Gominak, Michael F. Holick, Ph.D., M.D., Vitamin D Council) seem to be finding that the very low side of the “normal” range of 30-100 ng/L produces a range of symptoms including OSA, pain, and infection. What I appear to be finding out this fall is that more D helps normalize my breathing chemoreflexes. It seems to make it easier to breath properly night and day and to not breath too much when excited or anxious.

I think your doctor's suggestion of O2 would work for a while. It would make you breath less, at least until the chemoreflexes normalized to the new O2 levels. Then all bets are off.

Another thing that might help is EERS [1] which would help maintain CO2 levels.

I have found exercise and meditation helpful to deal with stress and help form good breathing chemoreflexes.

It would probably be wise to keep up on your antioxidant foods as they can help prevent and/or repair damage done to your cells during events.

[1]: Gilmartin G, McGeehan B, Vigneault K, Daly RW, Manento M, Weiss JW, Thomas RJ.
Treatment of positive airway pressure treatment-associated respiratory instability with enhanced expiratory rebreathing space (EERS).
Source: J Clin Sleep Med. 2010 Dec 15;6(6):529-38. Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, MA, USA.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206741
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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by pbriggs » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:32 pm

most interesting on the vitamin D - http://drgominak.com/vitamin-d-3/ - he also talks about B5 and B12 being necessary for "good" sleep.

And - no I am not a large person - only 5''-5" and typically between 175 and 180 pounds the last few years. Not overly happy with the weight, but that is another story... lol ... I have a highly stressful job and travel ~25% of the time. I also have something along the line of night terrors at an alarming frequency that did not start until my early adult years, so most unusual patient for my doc for sure... I keep him entertained and I am trying to learn as much as I can as I go along.

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:10 pm

Thank You!!! to those who have continued to follow this thread!!!

Todzo: Yes, I'm a large guy. 6'2", 360 lbs. If there's anything I'd noticed was that the desats happen at the end of a shallower appearing breathing period. The fact that the low O2 comes after that shallowness was a bit confusing. During the shallow breathing yes, but after didn't make sense!! I'm pleased with the only pressure increase I'v tried, from 9.5-10.5. Tonight I've bumped it to 11. I wonder too, if the C-flex setting might be something to review. One thing at a time!!!

Now, if my PCP Doc would let me know something about the new sleep study, ... It's been since Oct 4th and I don't think she even wrote the order yet!! If I didn't live in a very small, isolated place, I'd look for a new Doc!!!

The study continues.....

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Re: Normal Pulse-ox results

Post by kwikwater » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:47 am

Well, I just stepped in the door from my long requested sleep study. ZILCH. ZERO. NOTTA. The tech said I kinda slept, but if you ask me I laid there for a generous study time of 8.5 hours and didn't sleep a wink. He had a wonderful sounding term for my Non-sleeping, but I was too tired to pay attention.

If you read through the posts above, I'm pleased that a pressure increase to 11 had brought my blood ox up above 90 all night now, but still have the drops every 90 mins. The sleep tech wasn't phased with those when I showed him. He said it looked very common during REM sleep. Despite a bad study, he did indicate that my gently snoring went away when he took pressures up to 14. Not sure I want to make that jump yet, but interesting.

So, soon as I get my act back together from a night of no sleep I'll think more about it all. Time to utilize this board as my resource!!!

KW

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