NOSE STRIPS ALTERNATIVE

I will avoid unkind comments about microcephaly; but DAMN! That's funny!

SleepingUgly wrote: See this article

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/22/5/827.full

in which "OSA" was experimentally induced in healthy subjects by occluding their noses, but not by occluding their mouths.

That is interesting. I note these comments from the study,

The two most likely explanations for the latter finding are that jaw opening is associated with a posterior movement of the angle of the jaw and compromise of the oropharyngeal airway diameter 21, and that posterior and inferior movement of the mandible may shorten the upper airway dilator muscles located between the mandible and hyoid and compromise their contractile force by producing unfavorable length-tension relationships in these muscles 20. The marked increase in upper airway resistance during sleep while mouth breathing in the current study, along with documentation during sleep in normal subjects of jaw opening, retroglossal airway patency, and a paucity of oral ventilation, might lead to speculatation that the most likely site of obstruction in the asleep normal subject breathing through the mouth may be the junction of the soft palate and tongue. However, the degree of jaw opening during sleep under conditions of forced breathing through the mouth in the current study is unknown and may be quite significant, and it has long been known that jaw opening can profoundly affect the diameter of the retroglossal airway 22. Hence, it is plausible that the increased upper airway resistance observed in the current study during mouth breathing could be caused by compromise at both velopharyngeal and retroglossal levels.

I have reported on here before that my mouth falls open during REM sleep and my pressure needs run as high as 18 cm. Compare this to around 10 cm when I am breathing through my nose. The statement above might explain this condition. I never read about this before (but then I am not so well studied on sleep apnea). It was a very small study. I wonder if more research has been done?

But back to the OP, I would agree that much more is needed to be known about Sleepless Johnny's condition and treatment before something can be recommended. There is too much "recommending what works for me" with only a slim understanding of the other guy's condition. I guess that is the nature of the internet.

BTW, Is Dr. Park still practicing medicine? I had it in mind that some time ago he took a nonpracticing position at a university. I had a conversation with him and a guest doctor on his call-in forums and asked them about my mouthbreathing. (I was considering taping.) They both said if I were using a FFM properly that I should not worry about the mouthbreathing.

Wow i didn't think i would receive so much feedback. thanks. Guys please don't argue.

I'm kind of afraid to post now but here it goes: i don't use any cpap at all now. i hasn't worked for me. i have many other chronic health issues together with severe sleep apnea (chronic gerd) just to name one. this one alone just makes it worse. gerd alone can make you sleep poorly.

i've always been wary about posting here and actually stopped doing it cause i don't use clap after using it a lot and not feeling better. i am from and live in south america, so sleep apnea medicine is not as good as it is here in the us. no follow up, no good knowledge. i own and used to use after several sleep studies here in the us (even one in stanford) a resmed vpap adapt sv, cause i was diagnosed complex sleep apnea. i can't remember the settings now but i never touched them. they even re-adjusted them in a titration in stanford.

believe it or not guys, there are a lot of people (50% or 60% says the literature?) that cpap doesn't work for. i'm one of those difficult cases. i have uars, another myth. doctor park says i have it, i think i have it. who is to know the truth? i'm listening to my body, done a lot of research, seen a lot of doctors, and i'm trying to be an advocate of my own health here. he has seen thousands of patients and he says i'm not the only one like this. he says he sees this thing over and over again.

uars patients he says (and i feel it too) have hypersensitive, override nervous systems because of so many years of severely poor sleep. i can't start telling you the amount of chronic health issues that sleeping poorly has brought on me. so we/i can't tolerate cpap cause it's a stimulus that keeps us light sleepers nor does make us sleep any better. it is such so, that we keep waking up (micro awakenings) and they don't even show as breathing events. i don't have the classic stopping breathing for several seconds (sleep apnea). i was even told in my home country i don't have sleep apnea.

i am using now 2 dental appliances at the same time (jaw forward and tongue forward) and an orthopedic neck so my chin doesn't come down (less airway space). again, no sleep doctors, self research, trying to help myself, and it helps a bit. i have to take several sleep aids every night or i just wont sleep (insomnia). it's been like that for years.

so, again, not to continue the argument, i am here to see him cause we've been having skype consultations and i finally saw him. he opened my nostrils and i really felt the difference. never paid attention to this before. i had surgery to correct my deviated septum (another common issue with a lot of sleep apnea and even none sleep apnea people), but have always had rhinnitis. i'm also here to treat my gerd/candidiasis with a strict diet, which i also hope helps. i'm here (and i also hope this doesn't start any argument, another myth) to explore sleep apnea surgery with him. he's gonna tell me whether or not i'm a candidate and for which one. i'm not getting surgery, i just wanna know what my options are cause cpap just hasn't worked for me.

dr. park is so good and honest he even told me, and this sounds logical too, that it's possible that after surgery, if i get it, i'll keep sleeping poorly cause of my chronic gerd. gerd alone can make you sleep poorly. that's like the biggest question for me now. he said most people with sleep apnea, or a lot, have gerd as well. this came as a shock to me. my digestive issues are major. not to mention the psychological effects of being sleep deprived for years. and i don't mean to rant/complain here. sleep is such an important issue. and i love dr park for defending this so much. i think sleep alone is a myth, i think it's a overlooked thing in medicine. he wrote a book about it.

if you don't sleep well you can get this whole bunch of health, psychological issues. he says it, i've lived it. it's just kind of nice to listen to it from an expert. my naturopathic doctor here is only concerned about my digestive issue. he doesn't even care i have sleep apnea. everyone is good on their own field.

i think it's logical to think (and i'm not trying to argue with anyone here) that if you don't sleep well through your nose it contributes to your sleep breathing problem/sleep apnea. the mouth and nose breathing thing, which causing which is like a chicken and egg thing. i felt such relief when he pulled my nostrils open, so much air passing through my nose, that it made me feel hope i could probably sleep better if i slept like this. he even showed me the endoscopy image of my constricted nostrils.

my dad is a loud snorer who is always tired and won't admit it. he has a busy active life. i think he has sleep apnea. i have his same face shape. small jaw. i just heard about a relative and his son who have depression and a hard time getting out of bed (just like me) cause they sleep so bad. they've been diagnosed with sleep apnea, they are using their cpap, and aren't sleeping well. think about so many posts here of people complaining about still sleeping poorly even wearing their cpaps.

guys i think you're so lucky to not only sleep better with your cpaps but also for living here in the us. sleep apnea medicine, doctors, equipment and follow up are far better here. and trust me i'm telling you this out of experience.

so thank you for the info on these appliances and to all who posted. i think i'll try them all and see which works best. i hope you're all sleeping well.

I tried this SnorePin from Amazon, but after about an hour I discarded it b/c it was ucomfortable:




IMO, your best bet is to try nasal pillows mask plus chinstrap plus CPAP


p.s. Dr Park is too eager to recommend surgical procedures on the nose, tongue, mouth, throat, etc. I would stay away from him.

so, again, not to continue the argument, i am here to see him cause we've been having skype consultations and i finally saw him. he opened my nostrils and i really felt the difference. never paid attention to this before. i had surgery to correct my deviated septum (another common issue with a lot of sleep apnea and even none sleep apnea people), but have always had rhinnitis. i'm also here to treat my gerd/candidiasis with a strict diet, which i also hope helps. i'm here (and i also hope this doesn't start any argument, another myth) to explore sleep apnea surgery with him. he's gonna tell me whether or not i'm a candidate and for which one. i'm not getting surgery, i just wanna know what my options are cause cpap just hasn't worked for me.

Sleepless_Johnny,

Now I understand why you did not give some details with your first post - your case is complicated!

I hope you will continue to post in this thread as time goes by. I have admiration for Dr. Park and it will be interesting and possibly quite useful to some to see how he proceeds with your case.

Don't worry about the arguing. It is very normal for an (mostly) unmoderated forum and you only participate in it if your personality likes that. (I like it a bit myself and actually think the amount that goes on here is healthy for the forum. )

I can offer you no other advice.

Best of luck.