COPPER AS ANTI-BACKERIAL AGENT IN HEATED HUMIDIFIER

If there is 'no problem' then how can this be one?

Hi, Apart from what it might do to the humidifier, I don't think I'd want to have it there if it transmits 'LITTLE or no copper...", as (excess) copper acts like a poison in the body and brain, and I'd never want to take a chance on it.

Just what does it take to get a simple message across?

In spite of practically daily postings on this subject, there seems to be those who do not read or not care except to be chicken littles.

The premise that somehow bacteria in a heated humidifier can be a problem and what to do about it.

The premise it TOTALLY incorrect.
Even if pathogens were somehow to be in the water, there is no possibility it can get into the vapor from the HH.

What is so difficult about understanding this?

This includes copper.

Stay tuned for the next chicken little posting on bacteria or things in the HH.

The answer will be the same.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

This is meant to reinforce cleaning of equipment and to discourage the thought that bacteria absolutely cannot travel via humidification systems. I'm not trying to be chicken little.

Bacteria cannot travel in water vapor, ie water in it's gaseous state.

Bacteria can travel in water in it's liquid state. When in use there is a thin film of water throughout the humidifier chamber, the tubing, and the mask. Bacteria can spread through that film of liquid /water. Some bacteria are motile. For those lacking motility, there is air blowing through the tubing. That moving air can move tiny droplets of water that can contain bacteria. That is where there are potential problems.

The source of bacteria in the first place??? I exhale & some of that air contains water droplets and maybe bacteria esp if I have a resp infection-it enters the tubing. I turn off the machine in the AM and don't clean it. Some of the bacteria live in the water film-not thriving because there aren't many nutrients-but still alive-they get blown back at me when I hook up again that night. Or maybe I didn't wash my hands -pick up the funnel to refill the HH and transfer a few bacteria to the HH. Maybe Grandkids get curious and dip their fingers into the water sitting in the HH, blow into the end of the tubing, or put on the mask. (I put the system away when they are visiting).

People have different levels of resistance to bacteria/viruses. Different germs have different nutrient requirements and different levels of infectivity. A few bacteria are aqueous.

Not a common occurence, but given the right (or you could say wrong) set of circustances one could get an infection through the system-it's why it is recommended that we clean them out. Cleaning provides a "firewall". Yes-some users claim to have not cleaned their systems or parts of it for months-does that mean none of us have to clean our equipment? I don't know what set of factors is at work in my system-so I try to break into those factors by adding one of my own-cleaning.

IMO Drying out the system is a good way to stop organisms that can live in water. That gives the tubing the most potential as a source of infection-it's hard to dry out every day. If I disconnect the system my humidifier chamber & mask will dry out even if I didn't wash them. The tubing however still has some water droplets after a day of hanging to dry. My solution is two tubes/hoses.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): humidifier, tubing, clean, Travel

krousseau wrote:IMO Drying out the system is a good way to stop organisms that can live in water. That gives the tubing the most potential as a source of infection-it's hard to dry out every day. If I disconnect the system my humidifier chamber & mask will dry out even if I didn't wash them. The tubing however still has some water droplets after a day of hanging to dry. My solution is two tubes/hoses.

Krousseau, there is an easy, effective way to dry everything out daily. Simply leave everything hooked up after emptying the humidifier, and turn the machine on for 15 minutes or more and everything will be clean and dry -- daily. No muss, no fuss.

Just consider the additional contaminants that potentially enter the system from cleaning . . . much greater than those already in the essentially sterile system which is what you have when using distilled water.

As a practical matter, the cleaning of a sterile system (sterile for practical purposes anyway) introduces large quantities of non-sterile stuff - exactly the opposite of what is hoped for.

Regards,
Bill

The point of my post was to refute the assertion that bacteria could not possibly be transferred by the humidification system.

My blower shuts off automatically so I can't dry it that way.

My respiratory system from the nares to the bottom of my lungs is not sterile. My CPAP system is not sterile-never was-never will be. It is clean. The method I use to clean it will REDUCE any organisms that may have entered the system. Is it possible to reintroduce bacteria during cleaning-of course. I use well water to rinse it. Who knows what my neighbor's well is doing to the aquifer-I don't even know what my well is doing to the aquifer. I have been an operating room nurse-what I do is minimize the chance of infection. I could minimize it furthur by using boiled water to rinse the equipment or soak it in a cold sterilization solution. I decide how far I want to go - how much risk I want to take. If I do get an infection I increase my precautions so I don't reinfect myself.

tomjax wrote:Just what does it take to get a simple message across?
In spite of practically daily postings on this subject, there seems to be those who do not read or not care except to be chicken littles. The premise that somehow bacteria in a heated humidifier can be a problem and what to do about it.
The premise it TOTALLY incorrect.
Even if pathogens were somehow to be in the water, there is no possibility it can get into the vapor from the HH. What is so difficult about understanding this? This includes copper. Stay tuned for the next chicken little posting on bacteria or things in the HH.
The answer will be the same:
THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

(my emphasis and color-crayons)

I'm with Tom on this one. But that's no reason to stop the hysteria.
Just for fun, sit back, relax, breath in and out for a minute, then ponder this little calculation:

(0.5 liters avg tidal volume * 15 breaths per minute * 380 cfu/M3) / 1000 liters per M3

That works out to a modest 3 pathogens (CFUs) a minute or 180 per hour, or about 4000 / day. That's just normal breathing in an average building. CPAP is not involved. Somehow we survive.

I would suggest that air from the business end of a HH connected to a CPAP is among the cleanest and germ-free air for a long ways around. The recurring theme that these humidifiers with HEPA filters and distilled water are virtual cesspools lacks basic credibility. The notion that possibly maybe A GERM might somehow levitate, get caught in the airflow, and end up in your nose (where it would find itself in good company) doesn't strike me as worthy of months and years of endless debate that it evokes. But clearly it does. Or as you say...

Food for thought, Fodder for debate.

There is however a simple solution to this dilemma:
DON'T BREATHE !
OK, let's hear it from the other team.


references:
(cfu/M3=colony-forming-units per cubic meter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_rate
http://www.engr.psu.edu/AE/iec/abe/cont ... _purge.asp

Cesspools??? Hysteria??? Take it easy you don't have to get so excited.

Read again carefully...included in the things I said were the following statements;

People have different susceptabilities

Organisms have different infectivities/pathogenicity

[There is a]Set of factors at work (not a single one)

Not a common occurence (because the set of factors has to come together)

Not impossible though-and if I was the one out of ten thousand-I'd be angry with myself for not taking time to prevent it.

Pathogens (bacteria, viruses, parasites, prions whatever-thrive or not on our habits. I love microbiology and infection control and tracking down how people got the bug they did when they did. If I had known more about it when I started college I would have become a CDC investigator-I did some infection control when I worked in a hospital-but now it is merely an interest. Admittedly hospitals are a different environment-and the pathogens like methacillin resistant staph aureus are now in the community. I volunteer with kids who don't know how to blow their noses or cover sneezes yet so may come home with more germs on me than you do.

Hey there is also a rather new theory that organisms may be responsible for inserting new genetic material into human cells and thus contributing to evolution.In that case we may want to start nebulizing our carefully cultured humidifier water-I can see the medical reports & headlines already....Cpappers evolve more rapidly that noncpappers, Cpappers Rule!!

Interesting readings about how people got the disease they did-when they did:
Berton Roueche, Stories of Medical Detection
Robert S. Desowitz, New Guinea Tapeworms and Jewish Grandmothers

Must be how I come up with my crazy ideas.....gotta stop reading....Kay

PS if we never got any germs-we would not develop any immunities.

And yes my nasal passages have returned to a normal state in the 3 months I've been on CPAP_i believe that can be attributed to breathing humidified filtered air 8 hr a day. It also means I have lowered my susceptibility to germs by reducing the inflammation from allergies. So yes I agree it is under most circustances good clean healthy air coming out of the business end of that tube. And I want to keep it that way.

I have a problem with my lungs (thus supplemental oxygen) and my immune system isn't very efficient so I take the precaution of putting liquid colloidal silver into HH every day. Last 3 days I've had a bug with sore throat, ears and (of course) beginnings of pneumonia (which happens whenever I get a bug because of lung problem)

When I am getting sick, I use LOTS of colloidal silver in HH - kills germs on contact AND IS IN THE AIR I BREATHE INTO LUNGS which helps me get over pneumonia faster. Before CPAP I used to put normal saline and colloidal silver in my nebulizer and use it as a treatment to help kill bacterial infection in lungs.

Because of my lungs, I am very mindful of bacteria and find the addition of colloidal silver (available at health food stores or on internet) to HH a great addition. For any of those who are concerned about bacteria, do some reading about colloidal silver and its properties - I have even stopped a strep throat in its tracks by "gargling" colloidal silver.

Anyone out there interested in great antiviral - antistrep - antistaph - let me know and I will tell you of my personal choices - from the girl with the "not so whippy" immune system.

Keeping the bacteria at bay in Wyoming

Ellen

Krousseau - I certainly admire the work you have done ...........Good nurses are Saints IMHO

Ellen, thank you. BTW-do you think the colloidal silver helps as much in the HH as it did in the nebulizer? I would have thought the nebulizer would have been better. But then I don't know much about colloidal silver. Kay

Ellen wrote:When I am getting sick, I use LOTS of colloidal silver in HH - kills germs on contact

Ellen, I think you might want to take a look at the latest research on colloidal silver. It turns out it does not kill germs on contact:
Quackery

In 2000, the Federal Court of Australia banned Vital Earth Company Pty Limited and its director Darryl John Jones from falsely representing that the colloidal silver produced by their "Vital Silver 3000 Zapper," "Vital Silver 2000 Automatic" and "Vital Silver 2000":

Can kill all disease-causing bacteria, fungi and virus within six minutes of contact
Has no harmful side effects;
Is effective with more than 650 different pathogenic bacteria and virus types

NIH Advisory

Colloidal silver products are often marketed with various unproven health-related claims. Examples include that they benefit the immune system; kill disease-causing agents such as bacteria, viruses, and fungi; are an alternative to prescription antibiotics; or treat diseases such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, syphilis, scarlet fever, shingles, herpes, pneumonia, and prostatitis (inflammation of the prostate).

Animal studies have shown that silver builds up in the tissues of the body. In humans, buildup of silver from colloidal silver can lead to a side effect called argyria. It causes a bluish-gray discoloration of the skin, other organs, deep tissues, nails, and gums. Argyria cannot be treated or reversed, and it is permanent. While it is not known how argyria occurs, it is thought that silver combines with protein, forming complexes that deposit in the skin and are processed by sunlight (as in traditional photography).6,7 Other side effects from using colloidal silver products may include neurologic problems (such as seizures), kidney damage, stomach distress, headaches, fatigue, and skin irritation. Colloidal silver may interfere with the body's absorption of the following drugs: penacillamine, quinolones, tetracyclines, and thyroxine

I too am concerned that you say you use a lot of it. I have seen a person who overused silver ear drops for many years- He looked as if his skin had been painted with thinned out aluminum paint. I was tempted to turn out the lights to see if he would glow (so much for being a nice nurse). I think that the makers of colloidal silver claim it does not accumulate in the body but I'd rather go with the NIH warning that Guest posted.....Kay

Want to start a new thread guys-I'm having fun. I'm afraid folks are going to stop checking in on this one-and I think it's a good one with lots of information to be shared. And some humor too. Rule one-we've got to keep laughing. It's probably good for our neck muscles and lungs.

Anyway back to the bacterial transmission thing. That thin film of water that has condensed on the tubing walls. It does reevaporate and recondense on its way up/down the tubing on it's way to our noses. The tubing stays moist though and if not washed can support bacteria in making a biofilm-now to the part that puzzles me-how the bacteria get nutrients from the biofilm so this is just speculation-maybe some of the bacteria die and the others derive nutrients from the dead ones (time for Tomjax to start vizualizing microscopic cannibals). Remember to laugh. I'm trying to find out more about it. I know of a caver who has a PhD in microbiology and studies extreme organisms-those who live in extreme conditions like hot springs, high salinity etc places. I'll try her for info here.

PS Ric I was worried before about colds/URI's and I did try to stop breathing but they put me on this weird machine-I thought I was germ phobic before-now I breathing from a tube connected to a septic tank.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): tubing