wondering why all (or most) ffm don't anchor below the chin?

I was reading the thread on the new quattro ffm and Dreamstalker noted: "This Hans Rudolph 7600 V2 mask answers almost all the above negative remarks about the Quattro AIR and it costs $50 less:" and in the picture provide, the bottom of the mask is under the chin.

it seems that if you wanted to build a stabile mask, the obvious place to anchor it would be beneath the chin, yet this seems very rare in masks. I've got a fitlife XL and even that is meant to go between your lips and your chin where there really isn't anything to grab on but a relatively flat surface

there must be a reason that they don't but I was wondering what it is?

there must be a reason that they don't but I was wondering what it is?

Chins are all different sizes so that is another fitting issue. Some people like me love the RespCare hybrid because of the chin flap others cut it off.

Because for some...(like me)...it's uncomfortable.

I have tried the F/P 431 and 432 Flexi-Fit masks (both chin cup masks)
The 431, which has multiple sizes, was too wide for my jaw, producing dreadful leaks at both lower corners.
The 432 has a foam cushion, which addresses the jowl leak, but the extra material pressing on my nose
makes it too stuffy for easy breathing. I have considered trimming the foam there, but haven't been
motivated all that much since finding I can sleep better with nasal and pillow masks.
Fit is very personal; and there is no substitute for actually wearing a mask to determine fit.

I know I wouldn't want it under my chin.....I don't need it. My "one and only" is the Ultra Mirage Full Face.
But, I also wonder if it might be a "patent" issue and can't be infringed/copied.


Den

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If the companies had access to all the ideas, that is mask design features were off patent, then we could have much better masks. I think mask design for Sleep Apnea is one case when the free market system is an inhibition.

I also point to the fact that is far different to design masks in a laboratory than to wear one all night. I think the Respironics design of trying to have a mask sitting on the top of the face allows one mask to fit a lot of different people, the slightest pull on any strap makes the mask walk across ones face, creating leaks.

Having a mask with under the chin support does not guarantee elimination of leaks. But the Fisher & Paykel #431; #432; and the Forma, and in the Hans Rudolph FF mask, cases, the issue, imo, is that they don't use the advanced technology of the double flaps cushion sealing that Resmed and Respironics use. So they leak profusely besides the under the chin support.

Here is a sketch showing the principal behind this technique of Labyrinth sealing used to seal rotating shafts machines, and also duplicated in those mask's multi flaps cushions:

It is not about leaks Avi, it is about
1) mask stays where it is supposed to be and doesn't end up in ones eyes
2) helps keep the mouth inside the mask because the jaw doesn't fall open and helps reduce mouth breathing.

avi123 wrote: But the Fisher & Paykel #431; #432; and the Forma, and in the Hans Rudolph FF mask, cases, the issue, imo, is that they don't use the advanced technology of the double flaps cushion sealing that Resmed and Respironics use. So they leak profusely besides the under the chin support.

I wear the Forma and my mask doesn't leak like a sieve, in fact my leak line is zero just about every morning and when it does show anything it's usually a 1 or 2 LPM. Every face is different so what is good for me may not be good for you and just because it doesn't have the double seal design is no sign that it is a worthless mask.

Double seal is a good design, but it's not the only good design.
The best design is not being used--that would be to make masks in more sizes and shapes
to fit the mutitude of different faces. At least make the cushions in a larger range, to fit the existing frames.
Why does it seem to be so unreasonable to do that? We didn't need FDA approval to have different faces!

avi123 wrote:Having a mask with under the chin support does not guarantee elimination of leaks. But the Fisher & Paykel #431; #432; and the Forma, and in the Hans Rudolph FF mask, cases, the issue, imo, is that they don't use the advanced technology of the double flaps cushion sealing that Resmed and Respironics use. So they leak profusely besides the under the chin support.

Avi - this may be YOUR experience and I respect that. But the 431 works PERFECTLY for me AND my husband. I know you don't like those masks and feel the seal technology is inferior, but for some people, it DOES work. The more popular masks that YOU say are better technology, leak more for ME than the 431.

What part of that can't you understand?

I mean, really. This is becoming a bit annoying.

I despise Starbucks coffee. It's too strong, bitter and tears up my stomach. Doesn't mean Starbucks is bad - it just isn't for ME. I don't go around badmouthing Starbucks simply because *I* feel it is an inferior product.

Maddy, I so agree with your Starbucks analogy! When my kids come to visit they're always arriving with their Starbucks in hand because they say Mom's coffee is too weak! What bothers me the most is how much they're paying for that bitter tasting coffee! What is the difference between the 431 and 432?

432 has an extra ridge inside the silicone cushion, where a molded foam piece goes.
This is fairly firm, not memory foam--there is no foam in the 431.
Also, only the 431 comes in a fit pack. supposedly, the 432 frame is in 3 sizes, I only have one. (edited for clarity)

On the 431, the frame is one size. It comes with S, M, & L seals that fit the frame. I use medium and hubby uses large.

purple wrote:If the companies had access to all the ideas, that is mask design features were off patent, then we could have much better masks. I think mask design for Sleep Apnea is one case when the free market system is an inhibition.

Don't you have that backwards?

The reason people invest their money in labs and personnel to develop designs is because they have hopes of patenting very effective masks and getting good return for their investment.

If anyone can copy a design, who is going to make the investments? No one.

I also think you have been misled that there is a patent for a mask that fits under the chin. I see different manufacturers offering them.