Full Face Masks

avi123 wrote:

Comment,

As a Mechanical and a Biomedical Engineer I know that when using seals in machines, the longer the linear length of a seal, the longer the probabilities of leaks if you're talking about the same composition of the seal all along its length.

Resmed's (and a few others) masks, use an advanced technology of the double flaps on their cushions, whereby the outer flap overlap the inner layer. Any leak inside the inner layer needs to travel between these flaps to reach the atmospheric pressure.
The more the flaps, the better the sealing b/c each flap reduces the pressures gradient, to a certain degree.

Here is a sketch showing the principal behind this technique in a Labyrinth seal used to seal rotating shafts:



From my experience, I know that the Fisher & Paykel full face masks #431 and #432 DON"T use such technique and thus I found them to be inferior leakage wise.

avi,

Thanks - that's a great explanation for a non-engineer like me.

Incidentally, if you are still considering trying the Wisp, I can attest to the fact that it has implemented the technique you describe, which contributes to the ease with which it seals. I am very much aware of the intricacy of the construction of its sealing "lip" every morning, when I try to take care to thoroughly wipe it with a fresh moist cpap wipe. It requires a thumb and opposing finger to carefully get into the curls which make up the lip.

Regards, Nate

NateS wrote:

avi123 wrote:



Incidentally, if you are still considering trying the Wisp, I can attest to the fact that it has implemented the technique you describe, which contributes to the ease with which it seals. I am very much aware of the intricacy of the construction of its sealing "lip" every morning, when I try to take care to thoroughly wipe it with a fresh moist cpap wipe. It requires a thumb and opposing finger to carefully get into the curls which make up the lip.

Regards, Nate

looking at the Wisp's cushion, it similar to the Mirage Sofgel's cushion that I use now.

The Wisp's cushion:


The Mirage SoftGel cushion:



I don't wipe clean the cushion but immerse it and the plastic part of the mask (the headgear is hanging outside the bin) in a mix of one teaspoon of this Johnson's baby-head-to -toe wash in a liter of faucet water in a plastic bin for about an hour and next spray with clear facet water and air dry in the bin. Should be good for week.

I'm not sure where one is in Tasmania but I know there are several places you can go in Melbourne where you can rent masks to try them out so I'm assuming there must be at least one that you could access near to you. It's not cheap though.

I'm in the same boat as you. Initially the pillows were working well for me but these days I'm lucky if I can use them for more than a few hours a night. And even then, I get extreme aerophagia which is very unpleasant. So I'm looking at getting a FFM. But the whole reason I went with pillows in the first place was because the masks I tried were awful. They leaked and woke me up several times and were extremely uncomfortable.

Sigh.

ddk wrote:And even then, I get extreme aerophagia which is very unpleasant.
Sigh.

You get ingested air (aerophagia) from all mask at all time. It bothered me only during the first year. I took PeptoBismol for it, (but it colors the stools black).

Thanks Sheriff Buford for your explanation of Hybrid masks. Nate S - thank you for your suggestion of good chin straps and I've noted Denial Dave's caution on the use of chin straps. Avi, thanks for explaining that double flaps on the full face masks make for a better seal, I've added this feature to the short list of full face masks I'm compiling. Just as an aside has anyone thought of setting up an excel spreadsheet for members where they can enter the type of mask(s) they have used and how they rate them? Thanks everyone, for your helpful comments. Cheers, Judy.

Thanks ddk. What sort of full face masks are you looking into?

The problem with speadsheets of course is that while a mask may be theoretically perfect as far as technical construction goes, if it doesn't fit, and work for a particular face, it's not going to work.

Judith Murphy wrote:Thanks ddk. What sort of full face masks are you looking into?

Honestly I don't know. I've tried the Quattro and Mirage and didn't like either. I found both to leak substantially and be very uncomfortable and bulky. Then again, I only tried them for a short period as I found the nasal pillows at the time worked better. Since I can't afford to rent masks to try them out, I'm not really sure what to do.

avi123 wrote:From my experience, I know that the Fisher & Paykel full face masks #431 and #432 DON"T use such technique and thus I found them to be inferior leakage wise.

I've tried numerous FFM's, most of them with the "superior" seal technology. All of them leaked like crazy for me.

Whatever the reason may be, there are some of us that find that F&P's masks work better. Maybe we are in the minority, but I just hate for them to be dismissed simply because a poster claims them to be inferior.

If not for the F&P 431 (the 432 did NOT work for me), I still wouldn't have one 3+ years into all of this.

Judith, so with a bit more research it turns out there are actually a lot of CPAP places that require that you make an appointment and go in and try out a few masks before purchasing. Not an ideal solution as a fitting isn't the same as sleeping with it but I'm sure that with a Google search you should be able to find one near you.

Thanks Madalot and ddk. Ddk, when I eventually come to a conclusion I'll let you know so that you'll have my experience to add to your own. Cheers, Judy.

In looking through the equipment that a lot of the folks on this forum use, the Hybrid does seem to have a following. I'm not sure why the Sheriff says its not a full face mask and what others think it is. My DME thinks it is so for now that's what I'm calling it. I had some trouble with traditional a full size mask. Many leaks by my eyes. I've had the most success so far with this Hybrid that I've been using for about one month. No eye leaks at all which has gone a long way with making me comfortable and keeping me asleep more than the four hours I was getting before. ResMed makes a hybrid mask called the Liberty. The Liberty and the Hybrid are both good masks and so far I'm more successful with therapy with them. Again, it is a learning process and not everyone will have the luxury of being able to try out various masks. So you might have to literally swoop in and grab one that has a good chance for success fairly quickly.

As a fellow mouth opener/jaw drop person I can definitely sympathize.

If you want to try a FF you have to decide 1.) Do you care if there is a forehead support bar, and 2.) do you have problems with noise coming from the air vents while you sleep -- because those are the main differences between most of the FF masks out there. If you are just going to sleep, immediately, with the mask, then a forehead support won't make much difference, and will help stabilize the mask while you sleep, preventing leaks with movement. If, however, you want to be able to watch TV or read, before bed, or just want a less bulky mask, then consider the few FF masks out there without a forehead support bar.

The regular old Quattro is supposedly the most prescribed FF mask on the market -- it is extremely comfortable for most people and for most people seals very well, even someone with jaw drop. The forehead support offers very fine settings and fit. The vent is almost silent. The headgear is very good. The Quattro, however is bulky, ugly, and has multiple small parts to clean. Plus somewhat costly. The new Quattro Air has gotten good reviews, is much easier to clean and less bulky -- however at least one person complained about the vent being non-directional and blowing all over.

The Quattro FX is smaller, has no forehead bar, different cushion design and headgear, but still an excellent choice. However, it has more reports of leaks with movement (it can ride up into the eyes, causing leaks). It has no chin strap to stop that. (Yet).

The Fisher Paykel FF masks are nice because they conform under the chin, preventing jaw drop and leaks.

The Hans Rudolph V2 is also a very good FF mask, with no forehead support. It's built like a tank, is a breeze to clean and it stays firmly planted once fit properly. It fits tight and is pretty difficult to dislodge and leak with movement. Its vent is slightly noisy compared to the others, however, and the headgear has smaller attachment clips than others do.

Good luck with whatever you choose -- but I would not recommend resorting to taping your mouth, at all. Just get a good FF mask and be done with it.

Thanks MagsterMile for your comments and thank you to hyperlexis for taking the time to post your thorough and detailed reply. All comments and suggestions taken on board. Although too much information can sometimes mean making the decision is more complex it's far better to have too much information than none at all. So thank you one and all. Cheers, Judy.

hyperlexis wrote:The Fisher Paykel FF masks are nice because they conform under the chin, preventing jaw drop and leaks.

The Hans Rudolph V2 is also a very good FF mask, with no forehead support.

I wanted to try these out but nowhere around me stocks them. It seems there's a very limited range in Australia. All the stores, even the online ones (that service here) seem to only stock certain versions of F&P, Resmed and Phillips.